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Holocat
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Ship velocity for...
« on: April 04, 2008, 03:29:29 pm »

Alright, I admit it right off the bat.  I am a lazy, lazy cat.  I *could* just go get the source code and try to figure this out myself, without bothering anyone.

But I won't.  'Cause I is lazy.  At least, i'll try asking here first.

I am wondering about specific ship velocities for star control ships.  I only need, say the human, spathi and maybe a couple other ships listed.  So long as the handling/speed/accel is unique compared to the other two ships.  Hence why I have asked for human and spathi as they handle uniquely in relation to each other.

I am not referring to the technical data sheets such as the SC1 dots on their technical readouts, but pixel-per-unit-time(or frame, either will do) for the ships.  turning velocity in a similar format (probably shipframe-per-unit-time/frame) would be a real help too.

Thanks in advance.

edit: oh, if a person had a choice between the SC tradition of discreet rotational values (and the resulting blindspots and tactics they bring up) or full and free rotation, what would you prefer?  I realize that discreet rotational values are important in terms of SC tactics, but full rotation is much easier to implement.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 05:13:38 pm by Holocat » Logged
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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 04:55:28 pm »

Alright, I admit it right off the bat.  I am a lazy, lazy cat.  I *could* just go get the source code and try to figure this out myself, without bothering anyone.
Also being lazy, I'll just point you toward the relevant source code. From there, you want to look at foo/foo.c for each race foo.

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I am wondering about specific ship velocities for star control ships.  I only need, say the human, spathi and maybe a couple other ships listed.  So long as the handling/speed/accel is unique compared to the other two ships.  Hence why I have asked for human and spathi as they handle uniquely in relation to each other.
MAX_THRUST is maximum speed in world units/frame (4, 8 or 16 world units/pixel depending on zoom), THRUST_INCREMENT is acceleration in world units/frame^2 and THRUST_WAIT is the amount of frames without thrust between frames with thrust. If I'm reading this right, the effective acceleration is thus THRUST_INCREMENT/(1+THRUST_WAIT). A frame is 1/24 s.

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edit: oh, if a person had a choice between the SC tradition of discreet rotational values (and the resulting blindspots and tactics they bring up) or full and free rotation, what would you prefer?  I realize that discreet rotational values are important in terms of SC tactics, but rull rotation is much easier to implement.
I feel the discrete angles could be more discreet.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 10:45:10 pm by Novus » Logged

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Holocat
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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 05:41:27 pm »

Also being lazy, I'll just point you toward the relevant source code. From there, you want to look at foo/foo.c for each race foo.

oh foo.  Thank you, exactly what I needed.  You said in a previous thread that there are 4px to a worldunit at max zoom.  What were they at med and min zoom, if you recall?

from the files I am reading TURN_WAIT is what I need to compare for turning rates, and a larger number is a slower turn.  Timer or by frame count for these numbers?  Is a WAIT of 1 meaning that it waits not at all, or every other frame? (start at 0 or 1 question I guess)

also in response to more discreet values, SC is 16 discreet points, if I am recalling correctly.  What would be a good number? 24? 32?

...
16degrees of freedom - 22.5degree increments
24df - 15di (misses precise diagonals)
32df - 11.25di
40df - 9di
 
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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 03:55:52 pm »

oh foo.  Thank you, exactly what I needed.  You said in a previous thread that there are 4px to a worldunit at max zoom.  What were they at med and min zoom, if you recall?
No, 4 world units to a pixel at full zoom, and 8 and 16 at the other levels, as I mentioned above (each zoom level halves the magnification).

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from the files I am reading TURN_WAIT is what I need to compare for turning rates, and a larger number is a slower turn.  Timer or by frame count for these numbers?  Is a WAIT of 1 meaning that it waits not at all, or every other frame? (start at 0 or 1 question I guess)
Ah, I forgot to explain that part. TURN_WAIT works like THRUST_WAIT, except there is no equivalent to THUST_INCREMENT. Thus, you have 16 angles to a full turn (22.5°/angle), giving an angular speed of 1/(1+TURN_WAIT) angles/frame or 540/(1+TURN_WAIT) °/s or 3π/(1+TURN_WAIT) radians/s.

Edit: As for how many angles to use: you can eliminate TURN_WAIT entirely without loss of precision and allow smooth turning while maintaining UQM's ships by noting that TURN_WAIT is 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 6, corresponding to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 time steps to turn (i.e. need 16, 32, 48, 64, 80 and 112 angles to turn smoothly at UQM frame rate). 6720 angles/full turn is the least common multiple of these; naturally, this changes if you change the frame rate, but you could instead simply use different angle measures for different ships (i.e. make the unit whatever the smallest possible turn is).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 04:09:31 pm by Novus » Logged

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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 07:31:27 pm »

There's also an Ultronomicon page with the ship properties, for what it's worth: http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Table_of_ship_properties
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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 06:24:16 pm »

thanks valgar, that table is useful, and reminds me of gravity (which i'm not doing the same way, but mass still might be important).  Wonder why I can't access the site sometimes though...

As for turning, I am aware I can rid myself of turn wait;  In fact, pygame will allow me to use true rotational transitions, so I only need 1 sprite that I can turn to any angle and keep UQM's turning rates by converting to a rad/sec sort of dealie.  I was initally afraid of aliasing that I recall occuring with rotational transitions, but apparantly pygame has a few tricks to keep that to a minimum.

The question on my mind is do I WANT to do this?  The discreet angles at which you can shoot (opposed to totally free turns) made blindspots in your firing fields that you had to maneauver for, and that small ships generally exploited to be able to close distance;  To be succinct, I get the feeling that blindspots are a part of the gameplay, eliminating them changes the gameplay, and i'm not entirely sure that the change itself is for the good.  Will I end up sidlining small ships/slow to maneauver ships because of the new-found accuracy of long-range shooting?  ...I'm not sure. 

This was also why I asked which set of discreet angles would be good, 'good' being a set of discreet angles that gave blindspots, but not blindspots that were too large nor too small.

Hm.  This also gives me the idea of varying the discreet angles between ships, so that some have 9degree, some 11 and some 22... i'll have to think about that.  Opinions welcome.

And sorry for the long gap between the posts, got bogged down in how to organize the data structures (which i'm still bogged down in, but have a potential solution for).
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Re: Ship velocity for...
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 08:29:11 pm »

The Ultranomicon page doesn't account for "various" speeds such as the Umgah reverse speed (which is the fastest non-warping, non-momentum-influenced method of travel) and the instant recoil the Druuge cannon provides and the Thraddash afterburners and others.
When I had the time, I remember I made two melee groups measuring the fastest ships; the first group was the standard "pedal to the medal" group, and the second factored in the abilities and gravity-whips.

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