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Author Topic: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?  (Read 12708 times)
Lukipela
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2008, 05:33:26 pm »

Not as much as a constant stream of agony lasting for months on end would traumatize one. Not by a far shot.

No, but that's why I said "slightly similar" instead of "exactly the same". Female circumcision is traumatic, and causes all sorts of infection, scarring and general nastiness that keeps you in pain for along time after the actual procedure. Not as much as a fictional device that hooks into your brain of course, but that's not what I was claiming either.
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Mhrny
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2008, 11:16:02 pm »

Hi!  I'm new, love Star Control I + II, and I LOVE the Ur-Quan.  I'm an aspiring writer, and if I ever produce villains HALF as good as these crazy caterpillars, I'll die happy.

Anyway, personally, I think you are all looking at only one aspect.  Yes, the Excrutiators were horrible, the pain was horrible, but that isn't all that happened to them. 

Let's remember some things about Ur-Quan history.  First, on paper, they should never have created a strong society.  They had tremendous territoriality, their extreme individualism makes the Druuge look like socialists.  However, they conquered their territoriality and created a successful culture.  They had to work harder than just about any other species to create a successful society, but they did it.  So they were proud of this achievement.

Then, they meet the Taalo, and once again, they have to work hard to join the Sentient Milieu (though it is easy for them to be friends with the Taalo, joining the other species was difficult).  But they did it, despite all the odds.

Then, they found a perfect niche for themselves:  solitary explorers.  The impression I got was that they were at their happiest when they were a member of the Sentient Milieu.  They were wanted, they were needed, they contributed constructively to the improvement of galactic civilization.  They were proud of themselves, and I'm not talking arrogance, I'm talking the healthy pride of working hard, beating the odds and coming out successful.

Then, the Dnyarri come along.  Before the Ur-Quan can hope to fight back, everything they've worked for, EVERYTHING, is ripped from them by sadistic, cruel, lazy toads who've never worked for anything in their lives.  Not only that, but it is THEY, the Ur-Quan, who brought the Dnyarri to the Sentient Milieu (and doing something against your will does not lessen the guilt).  The Ur-Quan feel that they are the reasons for the destruction of the group who showed them a level of happiness and success that they had never before experienced. 

Not only that, but they are forced to completely eradicate the Taalo.  They killed the Taalo, their only friends, the people who gave them a chance when no one else would have, the people who brought them up to a level of contentment that they had never before experienced.

Finally, they destroy the Dnyarri.  Once more, they pay an extremely high price in order to succeed, but they succeed. 

Then, they look around.  The Taalo are dead.  The Sentient Milieu is in shambles.  Because they, the Ur-Quan brought the Dnyarri here.   Everything the Ur-Quan worked for, everything they achieved has been eradicated.  They spent thousands of years building, and the Dnyarri tore it all down in a matter of months.

They felt a horrible guilt.  Blood stained their tentacles, blood that will never be washed off.  They couldn't take it, they couldn't take the fact that they are the reasons for the genocide of three other sentient species.  They hated themselves.  Everytime they looked at themselves, they saw the murderers of the Taalo, the Drall, and the Yuli.

The Ur-Quan snapped.  Their territorial nature and instinctive xenophobia consumed them. The Kohr-Ah decided that if they could eradicate three species, they could eradicate thousands of species.  In their minds they were monsters, they might as well continue to be monsters, for perhaps, someday, when all the potential threats in the universe were eradicated, perhaps the Ur-Quan could once again find peace.  The Kzer-Za, meanwhile, couldn't stand the thought of genocide, not after all the blood that they had already spilled.  So they decided to create their own slave empire.   They justified it to themselves by saying that their empire would be benevolent, protective.  They would protect sentient races from themselves, from outside threats.  Under their rule, there would be no war, no genocide, no wanton destruction.  There would even be limited freedom, far more than with the Dnyarri.

And THAT is why the Ur-Quan are so dedicated to the Path of Now and Forever, and the Eternal Doctrine.  Not just because of the Extruciator.

P.S.
 I'd probably say that this is passed on through indoctrination and genetic memory, as has been suggested throughout the post, though my impression is that the Ur-Quan genetic memory is more a memory of emotions than a memory of specific events.
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Deimos1313
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2008, 07:25:11 pm »

I think that we may be reading too much into Ur-Quan history and culture. The Ur-Quan had *always* been a fiercely predatory race, to the point of near uncontrollable instinctive rage in the presence of pretty much any carbon-based life. The Ur-Quan at the time of SC2 don't need to be inspired by ancient history to be the ultra-violent aggressors that we know them as; it is who they are, conflict is ingrained into their very genes. We can only speculate as to the true cultural significance of their respective Doctrines, but we can safely assume that it, at the very least, gives their murderous rampages a sense of some higher purpose, and that alone may have been enough to sustain their faith in the Doctrines for many thousands of years.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2008, 06:03:36 pm »

I agree with Mhrny's  view of the  green quans, thats how i imagined it to be.

The green ur-quan feel guilty and go around preventing the possibility of any future re-occurances by locking away anyone who disagrees with them, removing them from possible harm. The Green's aren't evil per se they don't go around slaughtering all life simply for the sake of it  (or for the fun of it.) The mere fact that they give the people they defeat the choice to be "protected" or to be battle thralls (both options removing them from possible harm) shows that they do have some compassionate side.

I dont agree with the black quans though. Their hatred is more than likely out of fear , they never want to be controlled again so they will remove all other races from existence regardless of whether they could control them or not (Prevention beats cure). Their loathing of anyone not black quan is simply fear of difference, of the unknown similar to good old fashioned bigotry.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2008, 11:06:57 pm »

I'll just keep this short and simple, with none of the in-depth discussion.

While their motive does evoke some sorrow out of me(something I have not said and still cannot say about any other villain that I know of), it does not save them from instant, burning rape courtesy of my homing Hellbore Cannon projectiles.

(Now, if I could just conceive a villain even half as good as the Ur-Quan that's original...my own take on a space adventure and exploration game set in a universe created from the ashes of this one has most of the remnants of humanity going off on a genocidal crusade in the hope of not being torn apart again by a war on Earth fought mostly by aliens manipulating the human population in search of a superweapon, which ultimately ended in the destruction of the planet and even this universe. It's still TOO inspired, as are many other aspects of this theoretical game. Maybe I just want a true Starflight or SC2 sequel THAT badly...)
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alanahikarichan
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2008, 07:40:08 pm »

I feel more sympathy for the Kzer-za than I do for the Kohr-ah-- but oh, do I feel for them. Mhrny explained why far better than I ever could, but-- if you ever let the Kohr-ah win the Conflict and then find a Kzer-za ship to talk to, here's what they say:

RUN HUMAN!
Because if you do not run -- do not find somewhere to hide and nurture your species
you are extinct, and we, who have tried to protect you
are now powerless to stop the killing frenzy of the Kohr-Ah.

(Emphasis mine.)

That's just... They don't want everyone to die, they've done everything in their power to keep EVERYONE safe despite the instinctual urge to kill and having every reason to be as insane as their darker brethren, and... gah, the whole thing makes me teary-eyed. ;_; It's not unusual for me to find it within myself to identify with, and even mourn for, the antagonists of a work of fiction, but they're just so... terrible things have happened to them, and they...

You imagine the threat of unknown invaders, or alien pestilence borne on the solar wind.
We have seen these. But you do not acknowledge your own worst enemy, yourselves.
We have found dead worlds without number, planets ravaged by atomic fire or gaian collapse.
These planets were not rendered sterile by outside forces.
They bear sad testament to the effects of unrestrained instinct and emotion
or simple ignorance.
We will prevent such mistakes.

I'm sorry if I can't help but think, if they had but carried out their quest to preserve life however they could in a more peaceful way, that they could have been benelovent, even Wise Mentors, instead of Overlords. And that they can't be... it's heartbreaking.

Yes, I'm a sap. Shut up.
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MageKing17
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2008, 03:57:46 pm »

Also keep in mind what the Kzer-Za did for the Syreen.
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alanahikarichan
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2008, 01:35:14 pm »

Oh, yes, that too. They were the least cruel overlords I've ever seen in a work of fiction, actually. :O
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Alvarin
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2008, 11:43:59 pm »

Mhrny and Alanahikarichan have summarized it well . I do pity the Ur-Quan , original the most , black the least ...
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