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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 05:45:44 pm »

Additionally, each pulse has a higher velocity and longer range than the one preceding it.
This isn't actually correct. All the pulses travel at the same speed. (They go the same distance, too, although the later ones arguably do have a longer range, since they're bigger -> able to tag the enemy ship when it's slightly farther away.)
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2008, 06:51:12 pm »

Additionally, each pulse has a higher velocity and longer range than the one preceding it.
This isn't actually correct. All the pulses travel at the same speed. (They go the same distance, too, although the later ones arguably do have a longer range, since they're bigger -> able to tag the enemy ship when it's slightly farther away.)

Fiddled with the game. You seem to be right, although I remember red pulses moving at a speed more ridiculous than what I saw just now.
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 08:38:47 pm »

You say the confusion ray is slow. It's actually in a many way tie for the second fastest projectile in the game, only after the Melnorme's main shot.
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AngusThermopyle
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 10:09:19 pm »

The confusion pulse has a decent speed, but it's super long range makes it seem slower than it really is when trying to peg an opponent from far away.

The pulse also has the unique property of being able pass completely through asteroids, zap sats, the planet (useful for orbiting situations), and just about everything else. I guess you could say area-of-effect weapons, like the Syreen Song, have similar properties. But this is the only projectile I can think of that does this.

In my experience, it also passes through the FRIED most of the time (and deforming the ring in the process).
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 10:58:00 pm »

You say the confusion ray is slow. It's actually in a many way tie for the second fastest projectile in the game, only after the Melnorme's main shot.

Compared to the Melnorme primary it is slow. The difference in velocity has a noticeable effect on the weapon's accuracy. The worst part about it is that most pilots playing against Melnorme mentally prepare themselves to dodge a red pulse, so when the slower confusion pulse comes flying in they sidestep it so easily. I can rewrite some of the article, but the original point stands. You can't use the secondary to land maximum range trickshots like you can with the primary.


Quote from: AngusThermopyle
The pulse also has the unique property of being able pass completely through asteroids, zap sats, the planet (useful for orbiting situations), and just about everything else.

Didn't know about the planet. Thanks for the info.


Quote from: AngusThermopyle
In my experience, it also passes through the FRIED most of the time (and deforming the ring in the process).

The confusion pulse has 200 durability. Although I don't see anyone disputing my previous mention of this, It can be destroyed by FRIED if it flies through two waves (that's 50 damage for every frame it spends inside a flamewave) from a bad angle. I don't believe it destroys FRIED clouds in the process, either.
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2008, 01:00:32 am »

As I said, it only deforms the ring (ie, the cloud struck by the pulse will not project as far as the other flame clouds, thus deforming the ring). Again, most of the time. It never destroys a flame cloud.

Two FRIEDS, yes, will mostly likely destroy the pulse.
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2008, 03:44:06 am »

The Mmrnmhrm Transformer



I present to you the most well-rounded combatant in Star Control. Mmrnmhrm is comprised of two different forms which it can alternate between. These two forms--a high speed missileboat and a point-blank brawler--fill in each other's gaps nicely. Being every bit as lethal as Androsynth, Mmrnmhrm has managed to find its way close to the top of the pile despite its 19 point cost. Mmrnmhrm will seem unwieldy to control to an inexperienced player, but it actually requires less player skill than most other ships to be useful.



The X-Wing



This is the form you will first see when Mmrnmhrm enters the arena. The X-Wing turns very fast yet has pitiful top speed. It wields a set of criss-crossing lasers that each inflict damage at the same rate as the VUX laser, or the same rate as the Chmmr laser when combined. This is a powerful yet somewhat limited short range weapon. Mmrnmhrm has a small battery that empties itself quickly when firing its twin lasers so it is best to strike most other ships in short intervals before breaking off. How does one accomplish this? See the section below. The X-Wing is also very good at tearing apart flanking ships while pillboxing.



Jousting

Want to close the gap with an opponent and rake them with your twin lasers? Approach as a Y-Wing, switch to X-Wing and fire as you glide past your opponent. You might need to nudge your direction of travel slightly once you switch to X-Wing, but be careful not to slow yourself down too much. Too much directional adjustment as an X-Wing will prevent you from catching the target or possibly leave you in an extended shootout at short range.



The Y-Wing



The Y-Wing is what you do most of the dirty work with. It has high speed and a slow turning rate. The weapon you get with it is a spammable twin missile launcher. Individual missiles inflict a single point of damage and don't track very well. Nevertheless, the long range of this weapon allows you to wear down many different enemies without them being able to hit back. Your direction of travel can have a large impact on the distance your missiles will reach before expiring. Travelling towards an opponent at maximum Y-Wing speed cuts the effectiveness of this weapon down dramatically. Don't do this. Facing towards your opponent while moving away from them will allow you to get the most out of your missile launcher, although that position can be difficult to set up and usually won't last very long before the other player escapes. Firing missiles from a relative halt is effective as well. Even when Mmrnmhrm is acting as a dedicated missile boat it may still need to switch into X-Wing form for the occasional sharp turn or brake.



Ideal Purpose

There is not any one particular ship which Mmrnmhrm is best held in reserve for. Here is the obligatory list of potential prey followed by a tactical run-down of the most enticing match-ups:

• Arilou
• Earthling
• Ilwrath
• Shofixti
• Slylandro
• Thraddash
• Umgah
• Ur-Quan
• Utwig
• VUX
• Zoq-Fot-Pik

Mmrnmhrm vs. Ur-Quan: Your maximum range exceeds theirs by a lot and Ur-Quan is not nearly fast enough to catch you. Slowly wear Ur-Quan down from far away with your Y-Wing missiles. Ur-Quan fighters are frustrating to shoot down with the X-Wing twin lasers, don't even try. Avoiding them is good enough. Take this fight slowly and carefully. You might manage to win without even sustaining a single crew loss.

Mmrnmhrm vs. Utwig: Utwig maneuvers like such a tub of lard that they can never hope to catch you. Their shield can only help delay the inevitable for a short while. Pick them apart with Y-Wing missiles.

Mmrnmhrm vs. Slylandro: If you happen to start this fight flying around in Y-Wing, switch to X-Wing and grind to a halt as fast as you can. Pillbox in X-Wing and blast them apart when they try to attack. Expect Slylandro to juke around and do anything they can think of to mess with you before beginning a flanking run. Connecting your lasers to their hull can be difficult, but Slylandro dies fast once your weapon strikes its mark whereas the other player will need to execute many successful flanking runs to beat you.




Counters

Mmrnmhrm is one of those rare spacecraft that doesn't lose to anything cheaper than itself very frequently, making more expensive craft worth sending against it. Chmmr and Orz can both do a great job of putting Mmrnmhrm back in its place.

Chmmr vs. Mmrnmhrm: Don't use the tractor beam. Doing so will send the X-Wing careening around the arena and make it possible for the other player to inflict more damage on you before you take them out. Instead you should meander towards Mmrnmhrm the conventional way and attack. Chmmr's beam has a slightly longer range, but the ship is not maneuverable enough to hit Mmrnmhrm without them hitting you back.

Orz vs. Mmrnmhrm: Deploy marines from many different directions and try to stall for time. Attacking Mmrnmhrm head-on with the mortar is usually a bad idea given Orz's low crew count. Your ship is just barely agile enough to avoid Mmrnmhrm's Y-Wing and that is what you should focus your attention on. Mmrnmhrm's horribly gimped turning rate will lead to it being boarded by your marines sooner or later.

Not satisfied with those two? I will leave you some tips for a few of the better "grey area" match-ups which can be worth attempting if you're feeling dangerous...

Syreen vs. Mmrnmhrm: Steer clear of Y-Wing missiles and search for the planet. Once you find it, gravity whip onto the Mmrnmhrm's position. You will probably miss them and be forced to repeat this many times. Use your Siren's Song once you get close enough. The Mmrnmhrm may fly right by you as you do this, leaving you free to steal a few crew. Oftentimes the other player will anticipate what you're trying to do and switch into X-Wing. Try not to run straight into the X-Wing's twin lasers while you spam your Siren's Song. If the Mmrnmhrm player switches into X-Wing and positions their ship to protect floating crew then you should back away from them a bit and then take potshots at the X-Wing with your stupidshooter. Mmrnmhrm will be forced to switch back into Y-Wing to escape you, allowing you to steal their crew as they flee.

Supox vs. Mmrnmhrm: This fight strongly resembles Syreen vs. Mmrnmhrm. You will need to perform repeated gravity whips onto the Mmrnmhrm's position to attack in a similar fashion. The difference with this match-up is that Supox will inflict damage much less rapidly than Syreen, yet be virtually immune to the X-Wing's twin lasers thanks to its vectored thrust if you play correctly. Accelerate in reverse at just the right moment to prevent your ship from ever drawing close enough that twin lasers can hit you. Get as many shots in as you can after you close in on the Mmrnmhrm's position, then return to the planet to set yourself up for another run. Y-Wing missiles are the real threat here.

Druuge vs. Mmrnmhrm: This is a hard match-up to give advice for because it's so free form. The key here is that Mmrnmhrm can't turn very quickly as a Y-Wing. This leads to it following a rather predictable flight path which allows for easy hits. "Easy" being a relative term, unfortunately. You need to be very good at connecting those long shots with Druuge to win this fight. If you can't land those direct hits quickly you will be picked apart by a flurry of missiles.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 10:27:04 am by Shiver » Logged
Elvish Pillager
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2008, 12:41:38 pm »

I present to you the most well-rounded combatant in Star Control. Mmrnmhrm is comprised of two different forms which it can alternate between. These two forms--a high speed missileboat and a point-blank brawler--fill in each other's gaps nicely.
Just because it says so in the manual doesn't mean it's anywhere near the truth. I'd put Melnorme, Earthling, Druuge, Supox, and Kohr-Ah over Mmrnmhrm for well-roundedness in a heartbeat. The ship is relatively costly, has no defensive weapons, and can't dodge worth crap in either form. Contrary to being "well-rounded", the ship's performance is mostly based on its one trick - keeping out of range and spamming long-range missiles. The X-form is just at tacked-on tool that happens to be useful in a few matches.

This is the form you will first see when Mmrnmhrm enters the arena. The X-Wing turns very fast yet has pitiful top speed. It wields a set of criss-crossing lasers that inflict damage at the same rate as the VUX laser.
Please specify that each laser inflicts damage at the same rate as the VUX laser, resulting in twice the momentary firepower total, though it's not always easy to hit with both.

Mmrnmhrm can steamroll a large number of different spacecraft. Seeing as how that is the case, here is the obligatory long list of potential prey followed by a tactical run-down of the most enticing match-ups:
[...]
• Arilou
Didn't we decide that Arilou can win that one by teleport spamming?

• Yehat
That's a loss for Mmrnmhrm after a long borefest.
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2008, 02:53:38 pm »

Oh good. Nice to see some serious debate in here again.


I present to you the most well-rounded combatant in Star Control. Mmrnmhrm is comprised of two different forms which it can alternate between. These two forms--a high speed missileboat and a point-blank brawler--fill in each other's gaps nicely.
Just because it says so in the manual doesn't mean it's anywhere near the truth. I'd put Melnorme, Earthling, Druuge, Supox, and Kohr-Ah over Mmrnmhrm for well-roundedness in a heartbeat. The ship is relatively costly, has no defensive weapons, and can't dodge worth crap in either form. Contrary to being "well-rounded", the ship's performance is mostly based on its one trick - keeping out of range and spamming long-range missiles. The X-form is just at tacked-on tool that happens to be useful in a few matches.

I disagree with you. Melnorme is vulnerable to flanking ships, which Mmrnmhrm is good against. Druuge can be kicked around by the relatively weak Arilou and Earthling. Supox seems to under perform in general, but I'm withholding judgment on that ship until we play a battery of test bouts with it. What is Mmrnmhrm truly bad against? Chmmr.


Quote from: Elvish Pillager
This is the form you will first see when Mmrnmhrm enters the arena. The X-Wing turns very fast yet has pitiful top speed. It wields a set of criss-crossing lasers that inflict damage at the same rate as the VUX laser.
Please specify that each laser inflicts damage at the same rate as the VUX laser, resulting in twice the momentary firepower total, though it's not always easy to hit with both.

This is what I get for not looking at the code while writing one of these updates. It is a little surprising to know that Mmrnmhrm can hit as hard as Chmmr.


Quote from: Elvish Pillager
Mmrnmhrm can steamroll a large number of different spacecraft. Seeing as how that is the case, here is the obligatory long list of potential prey followed by a tactical run-down of the most enticing match-ups:
[...]
• Arilou
Didn't we decide that Arilou can win that one by teleport spamming?

Correction: We decided Arilou could force Mmrnmhrm to stop pillboxing. It changes the nature of the fight, but not the fact that Arilou has 6 crew and will usually shred like paper the moment Mmrnmhrm's laser touches it.


Quote from: Elvish Pillager
• Yehat
That's a loss for Mmrnmhrm after a long borefest.

Not unless you give the Yehat a perfect shield hack. Did Yehat ever actually beat Mmrnmhrm in any of our games? I don't remember that happening once.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 03:07:10 pm by Shiver » Logged
Elvish Pillager
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 07:37:47 pm »

I disagree with you. Melnorme is vulnerable to flanking ships, which Mmrnmhrm is good against. Druuge can be kicked around by the relatively weak Arilou and Earthling. Supox seems to under perform in general, but I'm withholding judgment on that ship until we play a battery of test bouts with it. What is Mmrnmhrm truly bad against? Chmmr.
Syreen vs Mmrnmhrm is every bit as reliable as Earthling vs Druuge, probably more. Every ship has counters, so if we're going to say being counterable makes a ship not well-rounded, Mmrnmhrm is as badly rounded as anything.

This is what I get for not looking at the code while writing one of these updates. It is a little surprising to know that Mmrnmhrm can hit as hard as Chmmr.
Keyword: "can". It only happens if you are in exactly the right place and only for less than half a second before you have to recover energy. Chmmr does more damage anyway because of its zap-sats.

Not unless you give the Yehat a perfect shield hack. Did Yehat ever actually beat Mmrnmhrm in any of our games? I don't remember that happening once.
I checked my logs yesterday. It doesn't look like we ever actually tested that match. Looks like we need to do some testing - the above debate rather hinges on how reliable Syreen, Supox, and Yehat are as counters...
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2008, 02:09:48 am »

I'll see about getting into the arena in the afternoon tomorrow then.

EDIT: Okay, I took Yehat off the list of prey for Mmrnmhrm because that fight was such a godawful slog for both sides. Everything else will remain exactly the same.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 01:54:42 am by Shiver » Logged
Resh Aleph
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 02:57:46 pm »

Sorry to interrupt the Sporing, but I noticed a couple of issues...

Ilwrath: "The ship itself isa very wide"
Melnorme: There are no spaces after the bullets in "Ideal Purpose". (Now is the time to Roll Eyes.)

I also recall seeing some mixed up sentence, but I don't remember where. So I suppose this paragraph is completely pointless.

And while I'm at it, here are my hopefully motivating cries of joy.

Yay, Melnorme!
Yay, Mmrnmhrm!
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Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2008, 06:50:51 pm »

Sorry to interrupt the Sporing, but I noticed a couple of issues...

Ilwrath: "The ship itself isa very wide"
Melnorme: There are no spaces after the bullets in "Ideal Purpose". (Now is the time to Roll Eyes.)

"isa" and "is a" in places where they don't make sense are typos I've been making my entire life. I wonder if it's some deep-rooted psychological problem.
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2008, 12:39:02 am »

Dude this guide is awesome! Why did you stop posting? Please finish it, the guide itself is so good (masterpiece good) that it would be a crime to leave it half-done Cry And yes, you rock dude Cool
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 04:25:02 pm by Son_of_Antares » Logged
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Re: Player-Versus-Player Strategy Guide v0.2.5
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2008, 01:51:35 am »

Dude this guide is awesome! Why did you stop posting? Please finish it, the guide itself is so good (masterpiece good) that it would be a crime to left it half-done Cry And yes, you rock dude Cool

EP's unwillingness to play test bouts has slowed me down somewhat, though he isn't the root of the problem. I'm taking this project slowly. The Mycon and Orz sections should appear in a few days.
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