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Author Topic: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?  (Read 8178 times)
locustkiller
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What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« on: September 14, 2008, 08:46:54 pm »

Let me start by saying i think the Ur Quan Masters is a great project, and a big thanks to all the people involved in resurrecting one of my favorite PC games from when i was a teen.  i am again enjoying it immensely.

i spent endless hours in my friends' basement playing Star Control 1 & 2. The most fun, obviously, was playing against my friend in supermelee. Both of us bending elbows uncomfortably to share the keyboard.

ive read thru page 10 or so of this board and if there was a previous thread explaining why so many of the hardcore fans rag on SC3 so much, then i missed it and forgive me.

When SC3 came out, and a friend sent me a copy , i had a lot of fun with it. Yes it starts out kind of goofy, but you still get to do all the fighting, all the running around and exploring/developing relations good or bad with alien cultures. Losing the game by randomly choosing the funniest response to a given conversation...  And bane of the pure strategy gamer, i actually enjoyed the graphics : puppetry-type video interfaces with the aliens, and the ship model updates.

it's been awhile since i loaded up SC3 on a new computer and tried it again (ive been playing UQM since i found this site a few weeks ago) but now ive got the itch to do so.

i recall in SC3 they had you build colonies for RUs and Crew for the resourcing part of the game, which i was fine with, since they changed that part from SC1 to SC2 as well.

Yes it was easier than SC2, yes it was less balanced (Once you acquire the Doog and start planting colonies , your battle supremacy is assured).  However i still got that "star control feel" of zipping around exploring and not knowing my fate, or how i was going to tackle the problems at hand. i truly despised the bad guys, i felt pride at turning enemies into allies..all those Characters and plot twists kept me interested, just like SC2.

So my question is, for you haters, did you play it all the way thru? Did you judge the game on its own merits , or stick to the fanboi credo of judging everything by comparing it to your "standard" favorite game? i'd just like to know.

To me a similar comparison would be Warlords2 compared to Warlords3 Reign of Heroes. Same basic concept, but totally different games. Nothing will ever be as good (in my opinion) a pure strategy stack-army-movement-and-production-single layer map-game as W2 but W3 was a perfectly enjoyable game with upgraded graphics and options, but not quite as pure a game. 



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AngusThermopyle
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 10:46:26 pm »

I direct you to the Pages of Now and Forever for a good list of why many of us don't like the game:

http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/sc3/sc3www.shtml
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 09:59:22 am »

I don't hate SC"3" , just feel that i was robed of my money - if i played before bought it because of the name - i would never buy it .
I really disliked the colony management - it is absolutely the same every time with no events (like at the game "Reunion") but you have to have those to progress . I was shocked to find huge parts of dialogue ripped whole from SC2 .
At cosmetics department , those puppets were really bad , not only inconsistent with previous parts of the game , but also lousy by the day's standarts as well .
The storyline is poor , events are few and long between . You just have to wait a lot for time-based events , flying aimlessly ...
List goes on and on . The only part that could be held for third one is the melee , but i don't really like the space fights ...
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 02:55:43 pm »

SC3 was just an atrocity, really. Sure they had some interesting ideas for one or two aliens, but that's about it.
Implementation sucked, the music also sucked as it was like listening to a freaking funeral over and over and over again. SC2 in comparison had a really nice soundtrack that was memorable.

The puppets were ugly as hell, they massacred the Syreen and the Arilou with those awful pulsating heads, the VUX didn't feel like VUX with the whiny voice, the Spathi weren't Spathi as they sounded awful (wheres the voice effect for the Spathi??), stolen dialogue, the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah thing was implemented badly, plus the whole fact a player controlled Dreadnought could waste any ship in the game, even Plexor's final ship was wasted in 3 shots. You couldn't escape Hyper-Melee and also the Ploxis ship was whacked in that if you blasted it, it would zoom across the screen super fast constantly which means you have to wait for the thing to slow down.

The Herald ripped off the Ilwrath's cloaking sound, all of the ditties for the new quadrant were boring generic rock tunes (except for one or two), the Vyro-Ingo were hastily added lame annoying aliens who the writers thought up some half assed way to merge them and the VUX together (what the heck?). The Pkunk somehow became.. giraffes, the Supox were lamely killed off by the Orz (not shown in the intro either) so as to mention them but not exactly implemented to save money. On the Orz, the Orz weren't even fleshed out, they didn't mention the Androsynth if I recall correctly missing out one of the biggest plot curiosities in SC2, instead they have them as "secret friends of the enemy" who are just stupidly degraded to fighting you at the end when the big bad comes back. The Doogs also were crew cows in that you could fight them with Syreen and end up hording tons of crew, or heck just use a Doog vs anything and you can end up regenerating constantly making the Mycons seem totally useless in comparison (not to mention, the Doog ditty is so long it allows you to recuperate your losses while the tune dredges on). The K'tang, the main force you're fighting against the whole time end up like a subpar villain in that they're ridiculous, their ships are also laughable in comparison to the Kohr-Ah in SC2 who you literally are unnerved by and fear if you're not up to scratch fighting them (plus the whole death march thing).

Oh and "You lied to the Owa, and then you die" what the heck?!
"You join Plexor, then you die" etc etc.. so lame. What if you forgot to save? Bah. Total garbage. You could also get stuck by doing something not linear to the plot and remain there forever.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 03:11:25 pm by Elerium » Logged
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 05:47:54 pm »

SC3 would have been a fun little game if it had been something I had dug out of a bargain bin rather than the sequel to SC2. Huge letdown. I don't see our fan community directing very much vitriol at it, however. The worst you'll see is the occasional "SCnot3", which is somewhat eyeroll inducing but nothing terrible.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 07:15:57 am »

SC3 was just an atrocity, really. Sure they had some interesting ideas for one or two aliens, but that's about it.
Implementation sucked, the music also sucked as it was like listening to a freaking funeral over and over and over again. SC2 in comparison had a really nice soundtrack that was memorable.

The puppets were ugly as hell, they massacred the Syreen and the Arilou with those awful pulsating heads, the VUX didn't feel like VUX with the whiny voice, the Spathi weren't Spathi as they sounded awful (wheres the voice effect for the Spathi??), stolen dialogue, the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah thing was implemented badly, plus the whole fact a player controlled Dreadnought could waste any ship in the game, even Plexor's final ship was wasted in 3 shots. You couldn't escape Hyper-Melee and also the Ploxis ship was whacked in that if you blasted it, it would zoom across the screen super fast constantly which means you have to wait for the thing to slow down.

The Herald ripped off the Ilwrath's cloaking sound, all of the ditties for the new quadrant were boring generic rock tunes (except for one or two), the Vyro-Ingo were hastily added lame annoying aliens who the writers thought up some half assed way to merge them and the VUX together (what the heck?). The Pkunk somehow became.. giraffes, the Supox were lamely killed off by the Orz (not shown in the intro either) so as to mention them but not exactly implemented to save money. On the Orz, the Orz weren't even fleshed out, they didn't mention the Androsynth if I recall correctly missing out one of the biggest plot curiosities in SC2, instead they have them as "secret friends of the enemy" who are just stupidly degraded to fighting you at the end when the big bad comes back. The Doogs also were crew cows in that you could fight them with Syreen and end up hording tons of crew, or heck just use a Doog vs anything and you can end up regenerating constantly making the Mycons seem totally useless in comparison (not to mention, the Doog ditty is so long it allows you to recuperate your losses while the tune dredges on). The K'tang, the main force you're fighting against the whole time end up like a subpar villain in that they're ridiculous, their ships are also laughable in comparison to the Kohr-Ah in SC2 who you literally are unnerved by and fear if you're not up to scratch fighting them (plus the whole death march thing).

Oh and "You lied to the Owa, and then you die" what the heck?!
"You join Plexor, then you die" etc etc.. so lame. What if you forgot to save? Bah. Total garbage. You could also get stuck by doing something not linear to the plot and remain there forever.
Ah yeah, good points. There's something I almost enjoyed about the droning midi music throughout the game though. Maybe just nostalgia.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 10:46:45 am »

Hi everyone. I have a confession to make.

I played SC3 before playing SC2.

Looking back, I do notice a substantial drop-off in quality. Most of the important plot points were on time release, the game contradicts SC2 canon on the Mycon and Orz, there's a big block of Fridge Logic at the end of the game. And the puppets were... not great.

That said, I still rather enjoyed it. Worse than SC2 does not necessarily mean unconscionable.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 08:54:57 pm »

The worst you'll see is the occasional "SCnot3", which is somewhat eyeroll inducing but nothing terrible.

Is it just me or is this a recent development? I seem to recall a lot more SC3 hate floating around just a few years ago.

For me, the worst part of the game will always be the multiple times the game engine broke and left me floating around without knowing that there was no way of completing the game.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 01:57:10 pm »

Yes, that was severely annoying...

I remember once playing the game, getting stuck, deciding to restart and follow a walkthrough, and getting stuck *again*..

Ah, such an awesome game it was...
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2008, 03:47:42 am »

In addition to the things mentioned, you didn't really have the option to just blast people, without your ship being taken away.  Also in super-melee they didn't have all the ships from the previous games.  The Androsynth being in SC2 super-melee even though they weren't in the full game would be an example.  Where are the Androsynth, Melnorme, Thraddash, Ilwrath, Druuge, Zoq-Fot-Pik, Yehat, & Umgah?  I would have liked being able to use them in super-melee against the new ships even if they weren't available in the full game.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 03:50:41 am by Terrell » Logged
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2008, 06:32:21 am »

In addition to the things mentioned, you didn't really have the option to just blast people, without your ship being taken away.  Also in super-melee they didn't have all the ships from the previous games.  The Androsynth being in SC2 super-melee even though they weren't in the full game would be an example.  Where are the Androsynth, Melnorme, Thraddash, Ilwrath, Druuge, Zoq-Fot-Pik, Yehat, & Umgah?  I would have liked being able to use them in super-melee against the new ships even if they weren't available in the full game.

It also kind of ruined any hope or suspense regarding the Supox when you noticed that their ship wasn't in Hyper-melee at all.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 06:59:26 am »

Did you judge the game on its own merits , or stick to the fanboi credo of judging everything by comparing it to your "standard" favorite game?

No, it's probably not fair to compare every game to one's favorite.  It would be bizarre to hold, say, Quake or Sims 2 or Smash Bros or whatever, up against SC2 and find it lacking; they're too different for a meaningful comparison of that type.

But.  SC3 isn't just any game; it was SC2's sequel.  A direct continuation of the same story.  I think it's entirely fair to compare the two; if you're going to explicitly build off of something that already exists then it's going to be compared to what went before, in terms of overall quality, preserving continuity and not contradicting existing canon, keeping everyone in-character, whether mysteries from previous canon are resolved in a good way or a lame way, game mechanics (or special effects, or writing quality, or art, depending on the medium) being at least as good, etc etc.

Plus, it's not just a matter of, "This isn't as good as SC2, therefore it sucks."  There's a hefty dose of, "They changed it and made it suck!"  There's a sense of wasted potential.  (See Exhibit A: Star Wars Trilogies.)
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 05:49:20 pm »

I hated the Tech team research thing. The length of time it took for them to research the f****** daktaklakpak translation thingie made me so mad.

I didnt mind SC3 too much though, okay it wasnt in the same level as SC2 but the adventure was still enjoyable provided you could work out the arbitrary solution for each puzzle. And the races some were good some were rather lame.

K'tang - useless ships and not very good dialogue (except when they misused words sometimes that was pretty funny)

Daks - annoying ships when they keep constantly attacking you but they are fairly easy to waste (sort of replacement probes). Their dialogue was also pretty poor but 'minimally sentient being' wasnt a bad description of the 'captain'.

Ploxis - You meet them like once in the game, they have no colony to destroy and they are annoying to talk to. plus their ships abilities were a merging of the Yehat and the forward weapon of the scout or torch.

Harika/Yorn - I liked these guys and their dialog wasnt too bad, their ships were pretty much useless to fly with but the idea to eat crew to make the ship go faster was kinda cool and the laser beam missles weren't bad either.

Doogs - I liked these guys. dialog was funny especially the 'tanks tanks tanks tanks etc' when you tell them to express their gratitude over and over Tongue. their ships were ridiculously overpowered though.

Exquivan - I HATED these guys because you cant actually talk to them properly until the Arilou randomly turn up and say something like dont judge their beliefs, then for no real reason the Exquivan start at least talking to you without as much of their psycho babble. Their following shield ability wasnt too bad.

Lk - Um the Lk seemed to me to just be chucked in as a hint vendor when you were unsure of what was going on (and you didnt ask ICOM).  Their ships were rather pathetic from memory (i dont really remember fighting them)

Viro-Ingo - They sort of replaced the Vux's random insulting which was kind of cool but the whole vux+viro-ingo thing i didnt really like. Their whirlpool dropping ships werent too bad.

X-chaggers - These guys were cool, the whole 'brave be x-chaggers, mighty be x-chaggers line got me every time'. their ships were kinda poor though sort of a replacement supox .

Clairconctlar - These rock people were kind of interesting cos i always wondered about the Taalo but they didnt really talk to you much and from an outside pov making a race that doesnt talk in a game is just lazy. their teleport beacon was an interesting substitute for the random Arilou teleport and allowed you to drop a beacon and broadside ships quite easily then disappear elsewhere.

Heralds - No real dialogue apart from 'we arent the eternal one's' (just out of curiosity was the captain listening at all when his tech teams told him that the eternal ones were energy beings?). their ships were kind of pathetic for super heralds of galaxy destroying lifeforms though.

Owa - The lack of choice of evil dialogue without repurcussions kind of ruined these guys but they were kind of okay. their ships homing seed spray wasnt too bad and the attack that reversed ships functions was kind of cool.

I think that the main reason they cut some of the SC2 races was the fact that if they included them they would have had to enlarge the galaxy and also add more races to the Crux to even it out a bit and that was obviously too much work seeing as they barely did all the work for most of the races they did include.

But yeah the net-play or melee were kind of poor, the more 3d style wasnt too bad but the ships were all very similar looking.

Anyway this is getting to be rather long so ill just reiterate, while they were kind of lazy in some things the story (while non-canon) was still halfway enjoyable and interesting in places. I didnt think it was too bad a game not worthy as the SC2 sequel though
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 06:57:28 pm »

K'tang - useless ships and not very good dialogue (except when they misused words sometimes that was pretty funny)

Speaking of which, if the precursor battleship is equipped with a universal translator then why are the K'Tang misusing words in the first place? You know those guys aren't speaking English to you. Their "crushify" is going to come out of the translator as "crush", it's not as though their slang is as incomprehensible as Orz speak.
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Re: What's with all the Starcon3 Hate?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 08:46:01 pm »

But then why would the Spathi abuse names as much as they do? Because it's funny! Remember that SC2 and, to some extent, SC3, have comedy in them, and when the comedy takes over anything can happen as long as it's part of the joke. You can explain a surprising amount of plotholes with this logic.
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