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Author Topic: arilou teleport, then die  (Read 6172 times)
psydev
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arilou teleport, then die
« on: September 16, 2008, 11:49:40 pm »

I was playing Arilou vs. Chenjesu and went to teleport and then when i re-appeared, I exploded. I had full crew and there was no fire coming from the chenjesu. I appeared right next to a DOGI, so maybe I died because I was touching it on re-appearance? This has happened twice.

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Alvarin
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 08:20:16 am »

I did not know about DOGI , but you do die if you apear on a planet or asteroid . This happens randomly 1/16 of the time . Some sort of a balansing thing for limiting the Arilou .
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Death 999
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2008, 04:11:59 pm »

Much less often than 1/16, but it is intentional.
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Shiver
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 11:08:24 am »

Much less often than 1/16, but it is intentional.

Someone post what the exact odds of that happening are. Really, I would love to know.
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 05:22:50 pm »

At a guess, I don't think it's hard-coded in. It'd just be the fraction of area that's within one arilou-radius of an asteroid or the planet. As you can see, that's a very small amount; but it would be calculable without even resorting to the source code.

Or there could be hard-coded in 'time to die, cow molester' line. That would simplify things.
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meep-eep
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 05:46:49 pm »

It's not hard-coded in.
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 06:04:38 am »

As you can see, that's a very small amount; but it would be calculable without even resorting to the source code.

Wouldn't we would need an exact scale model of the arena to know how likely it is for the Arilou to telefrag itself?
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2008, 02:49:31 pm »

(pixels assume a resolution of 320x240; don't get me wrong, changing the resolution doesn't change the probabilities, merely the number of pixels per planet and the number of world units per pixel)
(I am fairly positive that zooms refer to the zoom after the teleport, not before; this means that which one of the probabilities below is valid for a certain situation is in fact dependent on how far the enemy ship is from the planet)

Arena height: 7680 world units
Arena width: 8192 world units
Arena area: 62914560 square world units

MAX ZOOMED IN

4037 planet pixels
16 square world units/pixel
64592 square world units for planet

Probability of telefrag: 0.00102666

MED ZOOM
1008 planet pixels
64 square world units/pixel
64512 square world units for planet

Probability of telefrag: 0.00102539

MAX ZOOMED OUT
275 planet pixels
256 square world units/pixel
70400 square world units for planet

Probability of telefrag: 0.00111898

The probabilities aren't 100% precise because:
  • Teleporting will always end up placing the Skiff on an x-coordinate divisible by 4 and a y-coord also divisible by 4 (never on x: 23 and y: 25, for example).
  • It might be that ending up with a large enough section of the ship on top of the planet (without the Skiff -- its center, that is -- actually being positioned on a coordinate occupied by the planet) can result in telefragging too.
  • I cut out the last digits.

Still, the values are pretty close to the actual numbers.

(You could simply say that the probability is approximately 1/950)
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Shiver
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2008, 04:23:11 am »

Quote from: Jubal-lun-Sul
(You could simply say that the probability is approximately 1/950)


1 in 950 is way too high.


Quote from: Jubal-Iun-Sul
It might be that ending up with a large enough section of the ship on top of the planet (without the Skiff -- its center, that is -- actually being positioned on a coordinate occupied by the planet) can result in telefragging too


That has to be the case. The skiff dies if any part of itself is stuck inside an object. If I recall correctly, the second ship in the arena counts the same as an asteroid.
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2008, 02:14:31 pm »

The skiff dies if any part of itself is stuck inside an object. If I recall correctly, the second ship in the arena counts the same as an asteroid.

If that is the case, then not only would that significantly increase the probability, but it would probably also go against meep-eep's claim that telefrag isn't hard-coded -- I doubt that any collision-able object that gets stuck within another object is destroyed, given that only the Skiff is supposed to be able to do it, and as such it'd be a bug if somebody else did it (and if you want to work around a bug instead of fixing it, you should do it in such a way that the bug doesn't have any observable consequences -- destroying the transgressing object isn't a good idea).

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1 in 950 is way too high.

Is telefragging that rare? Do you really have to teleport, say, 2000 times to get telefragged once? I can't quite fathom where I could be wrong, but who knows...

(And by the way, I'm Jubal-lun-Sul, not Iun-Sul)
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Shiver
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 04:46:16 pm »

Quote from: Jubal-lun-Sul
If that is the case, then not only would that significantly increase the probability, but it would probably also go against meep-eep's claim that telefrag isn't hard-coded -- I doubt that any collision-able object that gets stuck within another object is destroyed, given that only the Skiff is supposed to be able to do it, and as such it'd be a bug if somebody else did it (and if you want to work around a bug instead of fixing it, you should do it in such a way that the bug doesn't have any observable consequences -- destroying the transgressing object isn't a good idea).

I don't follow you. All Meep-Eep said was that there isn't a fixed percent chance of death in the Arilou teleport code. Have you really never witnessed an Arilou telefragging itself on an asteroid? You haven't played enough melee if that's new to you.


Quote from: Jubal-Iun-Sul
Is telefragging that rare? Do you really have to teleport, say, 2000 times to get telefragged once? I can't quite fathom where I could be wrong, but who knows...

No, I was unclear. The probability of a telefrag is somewhere between 1/100 and 1/500 from my estimation. Anything outside of that range seems wrong. You did not take into account asteroid or enemy ship pixels so of course those probabilities are off.


Quote from: Jubal-Iun-Sul
(And by the way, I'm Jubal-lun-Sul, not Iun-Sul)

Very funny.
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 06:56:32 pm »

Quote from: Jubal-lun-Sul
If that is the case, then not only would that significantly increase the probability, but it would probably also go against meep-eep's claim that telefrag isn't hard-coded -- I doubt that any collision-able object that gets stuck within another object is destroyed, given that only the Skiff is supposed to be able to do it, and as such it'd be a bug if somebody else did it (and if you want to work around a bug instead of fixing it, you should do it in such a way that the bug doesn't have any observable consequences -- destroying the transgressing object isn't a good idea).

I don't follow you. All Meep-Eep said was that there isn't a fixed percent chance of death in the Arilou teleport code. Have you really never witnessed an Arilou telefragging itself on an asteroid? You haven't played enough melee if that's new to you.

I thought he meant that there's no part of the code that says that whenever a Skiff teleports on something else, it gets destroyed -- that, in truth, when the Skiff teleports within the planet, it gets destroyed because of repeated collisions with the planet. Smiley I must confess that I am quite surprised that ending up within an asteroid has the same effect (question to meep-eep: is it a bug or not, and what part of the code handles it?). Smiley And yes, it seems that I haven't played too much Melee. Smiley

Oh, and sorry for the jumping to conclusions and the bad wording. Smiley

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Very funny.

What's so funny? Smiley
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 08:15:20 pm by Jubal-lun-Sul » Logged
meep-eep
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 08:14:05 pm »

If an object appears on top of another object, it is destroyed. There are some exceptions, but a ship appearing on a planet, asteroids, or enemy ship isn't among them. I haven't checked whether warping in counts, but a Pkunk resurrection seems to be safe.

There's no explicit check to see if the ship is a Skiff, but this code seems to be very much intentional.
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2008, 03:26:04 am »

If an object appears on top of another object, it is destroyed. There are some exceptions, but a ship appearing on a planet, asteroids, or enemy ship isn't among them. I haven't checked whether warping in counts, but a Pkunk resurrection seems to be safe.

I've never seen any ship warp in to its death so it's safe to assume that's impossible. There must be something in the code that prevents a ship from spawning on top of an asteroid, planet or enemy ship. Pkunk reincarnation likely uses the same rules as a regular warp-in.

Incidentally, I am so glad the Arilou Skiff has this defect attached to its teleportation ability. Thank you Toys For Bob. I have no doubt Arilou would be a banned ship if that were not the case. What would stop players from chain teleporting hundreds of times to achieve perfect positioning? People still do that now of course, but at least it works against the Arilou as much as it helps them.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 03:27:48 am by Shiver » Logged
fossil
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Re: arilou teleport, then die
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 03:11:15 am »

I've never seen any ship warp in to its death so it's safe to assume that's impossible. There must be something in the code that prevents a ship from spawning on top of an asteroid, planet or enemy ship. Pkunk reincarnation likely uses the same rules as a regular warp-in.
Indeed, the warp-in is done carefully with several checks. A ship should never warp in on top of another object (though theoretically, a well-placed moving asteroid could spell doom). A ship will never even warp in within the reach of a gravity body.

That said, when calculating the probability of Skiff's telefrag, use only the maximally zoomed in pixel counts. All collision detection is done at this level.
All asteroids and an enemy ship add up to a planet in size at least, so 1 in ~470 sounds reasonable (I have not checked the math).
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