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Author Topic: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"  (Read 36565 times)
Shiver
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2008, 05:47:30 am »

Quote from: Cedric6014
It should demolish most small ships, but it should also be vulnerable to the Chmmr – remember, the Chmmr was designed to destroy Ur-Quan. Ideally it should be able to foot it with a Kohr-ah too.

This may be the case in SC2's canon, but it is not in melee. Not even against the AI. You would have to mod the Chmmr to change the balance of power between 30 point ships, and that sounds like a bad idea to me. The current Chmmr is powerful, fun to use, fun to destroy and very unique in feeling.


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After this, we need to fix the Yehat and the Chenjesu. And the frickin Thraddash!

Yehat and Chenjesu are easily fixed by lowering their prices. They're still quite playable that way. Of course that still doesn't solve the headache that is Yehat vs Spathi, which never occurs in vanilla melee but probably would if people got serious about playing a balance mod.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2008, 07:04:07 am »

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about the Chmmr. I’m just saying that it’s acceptable for Chmmr to overpower an Ur-Quan so there is no need to make the Ur-Quan too powerful.

I just believe that the Ur-Quan should demolish most other ships.

As for the Yehat and Chenjesu, well those are just some other ships that to me should be powerful ships (based on their role in SC1). That’s just my own personal feeling. The Chenjesu especially. I think I would rather enhance it in some subtle way rather than reduce it to average ship status. I expect most would disagree…
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Shiver
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2008, 07:37:12 am »

As for the Yehat and Chenjesu, well those are just some other ships that to me should be powerful ships (based on their role in SC1). That’s just my own personal feeling. The Chenjesu especially. I think I would rather enhance it in some subtle way rather than reduce it to average ship status. I expect most would disagree…

Actually, once upon a time I brought up the idea of having Chenjesu's primary explode into shrapnel that spun outwards in a spiral rather than traveling in a straight line. You could even make the spiral alternate between clockwise and counter-clockwise so that Chenjesu didn't leave any blindspot around itself whatsoever when spamming the primary at short range. That would be an elegant way of making Chenjesu more dangerous. That doesn't bring it up to 28 points, but it might make it worth 24.
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Mormont
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2008, 05:14:17 pm »

I don't like the idea of fighters not being able to expire. I think it's good that they can from a story standpoint - they're just thralls, the Ur-quan don't really care all that much about them and probably wouldn't design the fighters to ensure they won't die. Making them take longer to expire would be fine, though. Fighters should also cost less fuel to launch. I think letting them bounce off asteroids would make them too similar to marines, but they should definitely evade them.

And they have a couple of other AI issues. It really sucks how sometimes half your fighters will ram right into the enemy ship when they get to it and die. If the cruiser didn't have point defense, it would still have a somewhat effective defense against fighters just by spinning a lot!  Also, perhaps the fighters could launch out the sides instead of the back? That might make them a more effective short-range defense against small ships. Letting fighters shoot down projectiles, DOGIs, etc. is an interesting idea, but it might be too big a change. It's worth considering, though.

The biggest problem with the Dreadnought isn't its turning rate per se. I mean, that is a weakness, but not a crippling one and it's a weakness it should have. The problem is that it's quite large and that ships can only turn in 16 different directions. This means that many ships, even some big ones, can get in a position where they are in range of the cannon and the Dreadnought is facing them, but it can't hit with its fusion blasts, because the ship has fit between two turning positions and the bolts will miss. The Ur-quan has to change its course to fix this, which is easier said than done (partly due to its turning rate) and often leaves the Dreadnought vulnerable. It also makes it a lot less effective at shooting down projectiles, particularly against the Kohr-ah and the Cruiser.

I don't like some of the fixes proposed for this. Homing fusion bolts, double fusion bolts, exploding fusion bolts - these alter he fundamental design of the ship too much, I think. How difficult would it be to mod the game to have 32 or 64 turning positions? This might cause other balance issues (the Druuge would probably be really scary), but it would be fun to experiment with. Making the blasts alternate from the sides might be a good idea. 

I agree that having the fusion blast just strafe laterally toward the target is a much better idea than making it seek like a cruiser missile. That might be a good solution. Or maybe make the fusion bolts signficantly bigger and wider.

I'm a big fan of the Dreadnought despite its problems. It's just a fun ship. And the Yehat and Mycon and Chenjesu too.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 05:20:21 pm by Mormont » Logged
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #109 on: July 24, 2008, 07:58:02 pm »

How difficult would it be to mod the game to have 32 or 64 turning positions?
Double-or-quadruple-the-number-of-sprites-to-avoid-it-looking-like-ass difficult. But a good idea all the same, and if anyone who feels like doing that also feels like taking the time to clean up the existing sprites that would be brilliant.
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TapamN
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2008, 02:47:28 am »

Double-or-quadruple-the-number-of-sprites-to-avoid-it-looking-like-ass difficult.

Which is to say, not hard at all? Why redraw the sprites when the computer can?

http://www.students.uwf.edu/aen3/mauler.zip

That was like...2 minutes of work. A minute-and-a-half was spent looking for the "rotate-sprite-and-avoid-looking-like-ass" program.  Wink
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #111 on: October 16, 2008, 09:59:25 am »

Rather than wait for Hell to freeze over, I will be working on this balance mod myself starting now. The first change will be to give the Dreadnought's fusion bolts extra width. The extra width makes them better for scoring hits and blocking incoming projectiles. This has been completed already. I will not be releasing my work onto the Internet for download until I've made more changes to other ships.



Here's a diagram showing the new bolt I made right next to the original at various firing angles and distances:




The fighters on my current mod Dreadnought evade asteroids, have a much longer time period to return to the mothership before expiring, do not use or return crew and fire their weapons less rapidly (8 frames => 12 frames). Is this balanced? I have no idea until I try playing it against Elvish Pillager.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 11:01:07 am by Shiver » Logged
Death 999
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #112 on: October 16, 2008, 05:52:28 pm »

On the fighters front, have you considered including Nic's mod that lets the fighters shoot things like incoming enemy shots and asteroids?

When I played with them, those fighters presented a serious barrier to incoming fire. It was an entirely different use vector.
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Shiver
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2008, 06:46:38 pm »

On the fighters front, have you considered including Nic's mod that lets the fighters shoot things like incoming enemy shots and asteroids?

When I played with them, those fighters presented a serious barrier to incoming fire. It was an entirely different use vector.


For the record, I can't write code to save my life. EP did the difficult coding for me. I'm pretty sure he's already tried most of this stuff out by himself and the stuff he gave me was a simple copy-paste into IRC.

I'm trying to keep Ur-Quan fighters as more "quantity" than "quality". One thing I already tried was to raise their speed but keep the crew usage. I didn't like how similar the fighters felt to Orz marines when I did that. Shooting at asteroids and incoming projectiles would tend to push fighters further off towards being individually powerful. As it stands, the asteroid dodging and longer time before expiration are mostly aesthetic changes seeing as how the fighters are currently unmanned drones.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 07:04:14 pm by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2008, 08:03:20 pm »

First of all your images were off centered... not a big problem to solve but still. 2nd where is your program where can I find it?


Double-or-quadruple-the-number-of-sprites-to-avoid-it-looking-like-ass difficult.

Which is to say, not hard at all? Why redraw the sprites when the computer can?

http://www.students.uwf.edu/aen3/mauler.zip

That was like...2 minutes of work. A minute-and-a-half was spent looking for the "rotate-sprite-and-avoid-looking-like-ass" program.  Wink
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Shiver
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2008, 02:12:53 am »

TapamN doesn't regularly check the forum. It's unlikely you'll hear back from him anytime soon, if ever.


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First of all your images were off centered... not a big problem to solve but still.

It doesn't actually matter if ship images are off center. There's a file where you can move the game's "hotspot" to the center of the ship for each individual image.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 02:17:11 am by Shiver » Logged
Death 999
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2008, 04:32:54 pm »

The interdiction-capable fighters were still very fragile, no need to worry about that; and they weren't all that great at interdiction. On the ease front, I suspect that the two changes could be merged successfully. If not, either of the authors or I should be able to untangle it so they mesh.
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2008, 04:42:19 pm »

@shiver: Thank you I did not know that you could off center picture. will make it easier for me!
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