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Author Topic: why don't we make it ourselves?  (Read 30456 times)
RTyp06
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 11:19:09 pm »

I don't think Luki got "owned" or corrected . The procedural genertaion to be used in Black Sky and Infinity, which was what Fox was referring to, is FAR beyond what UQM uses and most likely outside the realm of the average hobbyist programmer.
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general_klefenz
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 02:30:19 am »

OK, i`ll use procedural generation since i`m not going to draw hundreds of worlds manually, and i have some questions for the community:
-what about changes in ships sprites? not like making dreadnought look like a potatoe, but in 2D to 3D transitions some shapes would change, an example is the umgha drone i posted, i explained the problem with it and i`m gonna change that sprite, it may look different to the original.
-new races, i heard a whole project falled because of this issue, but nwe game without new thing isn't new at all, just another remake.
-boss ships, something i'm sure about is that i'm going to put some boss ships across the game, like the Sa-matra, but smaller.
-reviving the androsynth, they vanished, but, some may have been far away from their homeworld and when they discovered what happened, not what actually happened, but noone responded from home, and they hide for many years.
-Slaveshielded: the Ur-quan slaveshielded many worlds, and nobody knows who or what lives in them, however the allies would release them and may open a pandora box.
-the taalo: are they still alive? the orz call their home world the "taalo playground", so they knew'em and the orz are quite new, also the melnorme said the taalo were dissapeared from this region of the space, so they could be somewhere else, maybe in other dimension.

most of those questions are for the storyline aspect, but first tell me what are your oppinions about the sprites issue.
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Lukipela
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2008, 07:29:40 am »

Procedural generation just means that content is created by the game, instead of in advance. UQM uses procedural generation for most of the star systems and planets. It's very simple, just using a (pseudo-)random value (based on a fix seed here) to determine how many and what kind of planets there are, what minerals to put there, and where, etc., but it's procedural generation.

And I don't see why a "fan-based initiative" couldn't do that. In fact, what a fan-based initiative usually lacks is time and people. Procedurally generating content could save on both.


Heh, fair enough. I guess I've seen the term associated with games like Spore and Black Sky so many times that I forgot that it's possible to do on a much more basic level as well, such as the one UQM uses. Still, the idea I got from Fox's post was to use procedural generation on the level in Spore, i.e. that users can create something and the game figures out how it works. This is far more complex than UQM fashion of saving the designers time that doesn't actually show anywhere in the game from a users perspective, and far harder (I assume) to implement codewise, especially for a fan based project without resources.


-what about changes in ships sprites? not like making dreadnought look like a potatoe, but in 2D to 3D transitions some shapes would change, an example is the umgha drone i posted, i explained the problem with it and i`m gonna change that sprite, it may look different to the original.

Doesn't 2D to 3D almost always cause changes in a model? There are quite a few 3D models floating around already, check PNF and maybe juicy to see how other people have solved this approach. Scott and Eth over on PNF have both done some modelling work, but not as much as Slylendro (if he is still around). There are others as well, but none come to mind right now.

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-new races, i heard a whole project falled because of this issue, but nwe game without new thing isn't new at all, just another remake.

You could make a story with just what hapopens to the old races after sC2. Still I agree with you, new content would make it a lot better. You just have to think long and hard about to to generate a new story, how many people, what kind of secrecy, and so forth. In a voluntary project you'll have to listen to everyone from coders to musicians, but compromising too much to keep people happy will make sure no one is happy.

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-boss ships, something i'm sure about is that i'm going to put some boss ships across the game, like the Sa-matra, but smaller.

This might work well or not. If there are superships camped out here and there, there has to be good story reasons for the enemy not just fielding them to destroy you straight away.

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-reviving the androsynth, they vanished, but, some may have been far away from their homeworld and when they discovered what happened, not what actually happened, but noone responded from home, and they hide for many years.

Touching the Androsynth will be pretty tricky, because everyone has their own idea of where they are and what happened. They and the Orz are mysterious, and revealing that mystery will need one heck of a story.

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-Slaveshielded: the Ur-quan slaveshielded many worlds, and nobody knows who or what lives in them, however the allies would release them and may open a pandora box.

This is a good idea IMO.

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-the taalo: are they still alive? the orz call their home world the "taalo playground", so they knew'em and the orz are quite new, also the melnorme said the taalo were dissapeared from this region of the space, so they could be somewhere else, maybe in other dimension.

According to a chat with TFB, they are alive. Where, when and how is another matter.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 07:39:20 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2008, 03:24:47 am »

I have an explanation for "reviving" the Androsynth, kinda. A large Androsynth colony could be discovered somewhere. Maybe not many there though. The mystery of what happened to the rest could remain a mystery, probably even to them.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2008, 06:27:53 am »

that's what i'm talking about, they were far, investigating something (they were always researching) and kinda they got stuck there
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Lukipela
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2008, 10:37:14 am »

that's what i'm talking about, they were far, investigating something (they were always researching) and kinda they got stuck there

The Orz didn't just snag the Androsynth on their homeworld (if that's what happened), they snagged all the Androsynth starships and colonies within their circle of influence. The story seems to indicate that once their *smell* was known/they were "seen" there were no more Androsynth. If you want to bring some sort of outlying colony back, you need to figure out what made them different enough to not be *smelt*/"seen". Extreme gentic modifcations maybe? But then they wouldn't really be Androsynth anymore...

Relevant snippet

Quote from: Arilou
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.
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RTyp06
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2008, 03:32:55 pm »

Perhaps whatever *smelled* the Androsynth decided to keep a few around for *happy games*...
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2008, 06:30:03 pm »

But if you go that route, you are going to be required to delve into an explanation of what happened to the rest. Unfortunately, the way the Androsynth's story is written means that you can't both bring them back and keep their disappearance a mystery.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2008, 08:25:12 pm »

So, wait a minute. Being a dumbass when it comes to computers, I have a very limited knowledge about how things like procedural generation actually works. But from what I do know and what you're saying, in order to generate something like planets with a certain number and type of mineral/bio things on each, the program utilizes some type of randomly generated array (or something), then assigns the properties of the planet to the values in the array. How does this apply to Star Control? For one thing, the planets always have the same minerals and locations in all versions, so the "randomly generated" numbers are fixed. This seems to indicate that the data is stored in the program instead of being procedurally generated.

Also, planets are hot or cold or have a lot of weather depending on whether they're in a system with a hot star or a gas giant or something. Do you just assign these parameters to the system that's generating the planets?
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2008, 08:52:42 pm »

So, wait a minute. Being a dumbass when it comes to computers, I have a very limited knowledge about how things like procedural generation actually works. But from what I do know and what you're saying, in order to generate something like planets with a certain number and type of mineral/bio things on each, the program utilizes some type of randomly generated array (or something), then assigns the properties of the planet to the values in the array. How does this apply to Star Control? For one thing, the planets always have the same minerals and locations in all versions, so the "randomly generated" numbers are fixed. This seems to indicate that the data is stored in the program instead of being procedurally generated.

From what I understand it's like having some sort of giant equation (in a simplified manner, say x=2y + 3y^2). As long as the game feeds the same seed (y=6) into the system, you always get the same result/universe. (x=120). The game only has one seed, so every time you start the game it goes "y=6" and the game generates a universe "120". Then some other code comes in and writes over certain random systems to make homeworlds and other special places (Sol system). That's the trouble with modding the universe. If you change the seed to "y=3" you'll get another universe "x=16". But because the code that generates special system depends on the systems to be modified to be in the right place it crashes spectacularly when they no longer exist. Say the computer tries to modify a certain system to be Sol, but there is no system there.

So in essence the worlds aren't random, but the procedure that they are created with can creating infinite universes if you vary the seed. And it does this when you start the game, except for special systems those worlds weren't drawn up by the creators. But because the seed is always the same the universe is always the same.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2008, 12:52:54 am »

ah, I see, that makes sense. So for a game like Spore, or a game that has random backgrounds and events (like Elder Scrolls), then would the seed be generated randomly by the program?

I'm sure that one algorithm and seed input don't control the entire game, right? I'm sure there are certain events that are generated using a different set of equations, as you put it.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2008, 03:02:40 pm »

ah, I see, that makes sense. So for a game like Spore, or a game that has random backgrounds and events (like Elder Scrolls), then would the seed be generated randomly by the program?

It is my understanding that in a game like spore, the algorithms are in place, but you construct the seed (creature). The program then take your seed/creature and runs it through its algorithms to figure out how it moves and stuff like that. this is the difference between UQM's way of using procedural generation it (one predetermined seed to save the creators some work) and new big flashy games like spore (user creates the seed and you can have virtually unlimited content as long as the procedural generation is advanced enough to figure your seed out).

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I'm sure that one algorithm and seed input don't control the entire game, right? I'm sure there are certain events that are generated using a different set of equations, as you put it.

I've no idea how the actual code looks, but I'm sure meep will be happy to enlighten you.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2008, 07:12:39 pm »

well, this is the first demo i can show of what i'm making.
it's really simple, just two earthling cruisers in battle for unknown reason, it has some bugs and the enemy cruiser is just unable to het out of the gravity well on it's own  , also there are many things that have to be implemented and corrected

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GY7MGVHU

if something goes terribly wrong with this, tell me, but i'm sure it won't damage any computer Grin

the controls are:
arrows for moving
control for main weapon (MX missile)
shift for secundary weapon (SDI lasers)
spacebar for restarting
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SweetSassyMolassy
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2008, 08:12:45 pm »

The graphics look really nice. Is it me, or does the inertia not really work though? Also, the planet's gravity is too strong.
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Re: why don't we make it ourselves?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2008, 09:03:46 pm »

IMO the inertia is fine, maybe it feels weird becouse the camera is static, and you're right about the gravity, already lowered it.
i have a big question now, does anybody know how does work the borders thing?

BTW yhis is a version with some minor fixes (including gravity)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NU6TYKP0
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:25:07 pm by general_klefenz » Logged
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