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Topic: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated! (Read 40259 times)
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CelticMinstrel
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Reading this thread from the beginning, I found several things to respond to, but seem to have forgotten most of them. Oh well...
The Mycon seem more technology advanced, which probably means stronger hyperspace broadcasts.
I'm not convinced the Mycon use hyperwave broadcasts at all....
the demise of Earth would have ensured that the Arilou would stay out of the conflict.
I don't think the Arilou would allow this to happen so easily.
About the arilou - they are outside the timeline , so *when* they discover Humans destroyed , they would *rewind* time and warn humans and whoever they see fit maybe even before the Kohr-Ah fleet reaches this quadrant .
I'm pretty sure the Arilou are not able to do that.
Now... the Burvixese are the first race in the sector to be exterminated. Consider the state of the sector at that time.
- The Utwig and the Supox are much the same as in SC2, except that the Utwig still have a functional Ultron.
- The Druuge are back in their sphere of influence, probably with their hyperwave casters still silenced.
- The Mycon are in their area of space. I don't know if they use hyperwave signals for communication.
- The Syreen are, depending on the exact timeframe, either still on Syra or just heading out from Syra in their habitat fleet.
- The VUX, Yehat, and Shofixti are much as in SC1&2.
- The Androsynth are still around, as in SC1, and the Orz are unaware of this area of space. I have no idea if the Taalo could do anything; probably not though.
- If humans have space flight, they have only just attained it. (I mean space flight capable of travelling between planets in a reasonable time, not the Apollo mission.)
- The Ilwrath probably don't even have space flight capability. If I recall correctly, the Ur-Quan were responsible for giving them space flight.
- The Chenjesu are in the Procyon(?) area, and the Mmrnmhrm are just "north" of them.
- The Pkunk, Thraddash, Umgah, and Spathi are much as in SC2.
- The Arilou are watching from afar.
- The Melnorme are probably in the sector, since they knew about the Druuge's deal with the Utwig.
- The Zoq-Fot-Pik are much as in SC2, but it's possible they aren't yet capable of space flight. If not, they would have no colonies.
- Did I miss anyone?
The Kohr-Ah would march upon the Utwig first. The Utwig would fall, but not without putting a significant dent in the Kohr-Ah forces. Their ships are superior to the Marauders, and they also have a Precursor bomb which could do major damage (though I don't think it would wipe out a third of the Kohr-Ah fleet as it did at Delta Gorno – detonating it normally would presumably be less effective than detonating it on the edge of a star). Once the Utwig have fallen, the Supox would fall soon after.
But wait – the Utwig have the Ultron. Might it not be possible that the Ultron will instruct them to send scouts to other races in the sector? Or possibly send some ships away where they will be safe in the event of a Kohr-Ah victory? Or maybe even both. Suppose the Utwig contact the Chenjesu, the Yehat, the Androsynth, and possibly the VUX. This gives a chance for the Alliance to form before the Kohr-Ah are even aware of it. If they're smart, they'll wait for the Kohr-Ah rather than going to meet them across the galaxy in Utwig space.
So, once the Supox have fallen, it's hard to say who will be next. There are two possibilities as I see it: either they go toward the Thraddash, stopping off at the Zoq-Fot-Pik if they find them, and then move on to the Umgah. (The Slylandro will remain undetected since I'm pretty sure they haven't yet purchased their Probe, and that's the only thing that would draw the Kohr-Ah's attention to them.) OR, they will exterminate the Druuge and then move on to the Mycon. I'll call them Scenario A and Scenario B, respectively.
In Scenario A, they come rushing through Umgah space only to come up against the Chenjesu forces, backed by the Mmrnmhrm and the Yehat and possibly even the Utwig scouts. The Androsynth may also join, but I doubt the VUX or the Spathi will. They will take significant losses, but the Chenjesu will eventually be defeated. At this point, they'll wipe out the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, and Ilwrath homeworlds, while the Yehat retreat to defend their own area of space, probably accompanied by Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm stragglers and maybe even by humans and Androsynth.
I think the Spathi will probably survive. Some people have pointed out that they'll probably hide and be exterminated, but I think it's more likely that they'll simply flee their homeworld to escape the Kohr-Ah. If they go back towards Arcturus, there's a chance the Kohr-Ah will never even know they existed. And with the exception of the Pkunk, their ships are the fastest in the sector, so they wouldn't have a problem evading the Kohr-Ah if they were discovered.
If the humans have joined, the next battle would probably be at Earth. The Arilou would be helpful here, but defeat is inevitable. The Kohr-Ah would probably take significant losses again from both the remaining Chenjesu and from the human nukes, but when it's clear there's no way to win I think the Arilou would spirit away the humans right under their noses, possibly to Unzervalt, so that when the Kohr-Ah finally arrive at Earth they find it abandoned. Then the remaining forces would retreat to Delta Gorno. They would probably have some time to get organized while the Kohr-Ah turn against the VUX, suffering still more losses against ZEX's superior tactics. However, despite this, the VUX would fall fairly quickly, and then the Kohr-Ah would suffer the greatest losses yet when Delta Gorno goes supernova. Then the Yehat, also greatly reduced by the war, would make a last stand at their homeworld. Once they are defeated, the Kohr-Ah would make short work of the remaining races: Mycon, Syreen, and Druuge. Oh, and the Androsynth as well. Then the Kohr-Ah would go on to initiate the Doctrinal Conflict, and with the losses they've suffered at the hands of the Alliance they would lose.
Oh, wait, I forgot the Pkunk. Let's suppose they join the Yehat in their last stand, and are defeated and destroyed along with them. So, the surviving races are: Arilou, humans, Spathi, and possibly some Utwig and Supox stragglers. The humans only survive due to the Arilou's help, and even so they are probably decimated. The Spathi survive due to their cowardice. Perhaps once the Kohr-Ah have moved on the Spathi and humans will both return to their homeworlds. Oh, and it's up in the air whether the Zoq-Fot-Pik survive. Probably not though.
In Scenario B, they come rushing through Mycon space, also destroying the Syreen in passing, and clash with the VUX. (Remember they have already suffered significant losses against the Utwig.) ZEX's tactics are quite effective, but in the end the VUX fall. I think they would turn to the Yehat next, rather than the Androsynth. The Yehat would be backed by the Chenjesu, Shofixti, Mmrnmhrm, possibly Umgah, possibly humans, and possibly Pkunk. The presence or absence of Umgah is irrelevant; they're pretty much useless. In this scenario, I think the Yehat would be destroyed before the Shofixti's last stand at Delta Gorno, destroying a third of the Kohr-Ah fleet. The Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm would retreat to Earth with any Yehat stragglers, and the Arilou would appear. They would hold off the Kohr-Ah for a little while, long enough for the Arilou to spirit away a good chunk of Earth's population. Then the survivors (primarily Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm, with possibly a few Yehat or humans left, and maybe some Pkunk) would retreat to Chenjesu space, and eventually be defeated (though not without significant losses to the Kohr-Ah). Once the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm are gone, the Ilwrath would be destroyed, followed by the Umgah and the Androsynth. The Androsynth would probably resist fairly well, but only delaying the inevitable. Then all that's left is the Thraddash and, if they find them, the Zoq-Fot-Pik. So the end result is the same: humans survive due to Arilou intervention, Spathi survive due to cowardice, and a few Utwig may survive due to foresight. And again the Kohr-Ah will lost the Doctrinal conflict.
So. While the details may differ, I think there are two things that are almost certain if the Kohr-Ah had arrived before the Kzer-Za. The first is that the human race will survive. The second is that the Kohr-Ah will lose the Doctrinal Conflict due to the losses they have taken from the races in this sector.[/list]
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UAF
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I'm not going this discussion again, but I just wanted to poitn out that if the Kohr-ah are good at record keeping, then they know about the Slylandro.
The brown Ur-quan have met the Slylandro in the distant past. Just FYI. 
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CelticMinstrel
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Hmm, good point... maybe the Slylandro would be killed too.
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spinsane
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A couple other things to consider- Both Ur-Quan sub-species have been traveling around the Galaxy for a VERY long time. Since the Doctrinal conflict is occuring in 'our' sector, or, "quandrant", if you will, its possible that the remainder of the Galaxy has either been subjugated by the Kzer-Za or annihilated by the Kohr-Ah.
According to the canonical timeline, the Kohr-Ah is new to the sector, it isn't likely that they have as much capability to produce ships as they have elsewhere. It isn't likely that their fleet at the end of the First Doctrinal war was never, at some point, rebuilt (obviously) and expanded. The Kohr-Ah aren't particulaly social creatures, but they DO utilize incredibly functional hierarchical social structures. They need supplies, production facilities, and a thriving economy to maintain the production of their ships and culture*. So, when either Ur-Quan sub-species moves on from a sector that they've dealt with, do they abandon it completely or leave some kind of trail behind?
* When you present the Words to the Kohr-Ah, they will outline the philosophical paradox of their Eternal Doctrine. This to me says wonders for how meticulous they must be in actual implementation.
The Kzer-Za didn't BRING any Battle Thralls with them, this implies that they subjugate local alien races to conquer other local alien races. Some degree of hierarchical control would need to remain in place to ensure the implementation of their doctrine. The Passion for maintaining their hierarchy cannot be thrown in to question, they don't even lie. For the Path of Now and Forever to be at all functional, much of the Ur-Quan race and at least a marginal number of ships as well as production facilities would need to be spread all across the galaxy. Based on this assumption, it is likely that the Kohr-Ah operate in a similar pattern, establishing some way to maintain oversight on a territory once it has been cleansed. The keyword here is continuation, which is the whole point of implementing a Doctrine in the first place. It is highly probable that the primary production capabilities of the both the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za lie in other quandrants of space and are VASTLY superior to ANYTHING in our quandrant of space. Why? Because they've been at it for a very long time and over a very large span of territory. It is true that a majority of their fleet would be in our quadrant, but their infrastructure would most certainly not be.
As a sidenote I'd like to suggest that both the text at the end of the 3DO version and PC version are both accurate. The production capabilities of the Chmmr being so advanced on their own homeworld, that they would be greater than any Ur-Quan in the quadrant. Supposing that the total amount of battling after the destruction of the Sa-Matra takes no more than 3 weeks AND the remaining forces retreat to the clouds of Magellan (I don't think you can actually have one without the other), then there is no inconsistency. If Talana says that they Chmmr did it in 3 weeks, I'm sure they could have. Consider that they Yehat have already covered ground up to Crateris, I'm sure that the Chmmr wouldn't be far behind. IIRC the Chmmr say something about how the destruction of the Sa-Matra will be their signal to strike. If you follow the events in the game as logically as possible (that is, as information is revealed), the LAST thing you do is repair the Ultron and get the bomb, which provides the Chmmr ample opportunity to begin producing Avatars (whether Humans and Chmmr have been producing ships or not isn't particularly important, the Kzer-Za are clearly distracted enough, even though the strategic redeployment of the earthguard defenses had been going on for some time).
Back to the alternative timeline, if the Kohr-Ah came first, everything would be dead. For two major reasons. Most races act in their own self-interest. Kohr-Ah doesn't have anything that it must defend. So the more the Kohr-Ah fleet divides its forces, the more diminuation amongst any alliance there would be, the less likely anything could be accomplished. Even if alliance forces danced between planetary defenses from one race to another as Kohr-Ah feigned attacks, all that would happen is exposure to one's own homeworld. Utwig/Supox/Thraddash/Ilwrath/ZFP/Orz/Umgah/Spathi/Mycon/Druuge are all either too weak, disinterested, or too far away to have any meaningful importance in an alliance. AFAIK the Mycon are 'newer' to the quadrant, having displaced the Syreen relatively shortly before the events of SC2, so no one is really aware of them. The only difference between the AFS vs Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah would be the Androsynth and the Vux, neither of which would leave their own homeworlds defenseless to protect anyone else, as it is outside of their self-interest and they are so close to threatening space. Supposing that any amount of damage was inflicted on the Kohr-Ah fleet, their reinforcements would be more than capable of finishing the job (even though their reinforcements may take longer to arrive to the front). Everyone else is too isolated.
The Doctrinal War wouldn't have differed much regardless of who got where when. The Ur-Quan are absolutely stronger than everyone else could ever hope to be. The only possibility that any other race ever had was the Doctrinal Conflict. Without the special conditions available, no race or group of races would have any real chance. Even after the Ur-Quan leaves (presuming they do more leaving than fighting, as implied by the 3 weeks), imagine what they are leaving to. On the one half we have an extensive and diverse series of battle-ready races with the capability of bolstering Ur-Quan forces to an extensive degree, and a trail of NOTHING but Kohr-Ah. The only thing the events in SC2 proves is that DIFFERING in doctrine is their only weakness, not that one is better than the other.
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UAF
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Races in SC2 tend to not know much about other races beyond their immediate neighbours.
Not much suggests that the Mycon are new to the area. We only know for sure that they (relatively) recently found the Syreen homeworld and destroyed it (Some time before SC1).
The only thing that might suggest that the Mycon are new is the following logic:
If the Mycon were created by another race that had hyperspace technology, then the Mycon had hypersace since the day they were made.
If they have memories from 50,000 years ago, then they were made AT LEAST 50,000 years ago.
If they had 50,000 years to find worlds suitable to their deep children, why didn't they find Syra sooner.
But if they are new to this sector, then it explains it.
Other options are:
1) The Mycon were created by a race without HS tech. They only developed it recently. (Means they are not Precursor constructs, their creators had advanced biology knowledge but not as advanced physics).
2) The Mycon didn't turn life bearing worlds into shattered worlds until recently. This fits with theories that this is some kind of problem with them, and not part of their original design.
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spinsane
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Yeah, I meant prior to the events of SC1 (whoops!), though if something is prior to the events of SC2 that doesn't mean that it isn't also prior to the events of SC1. Let me outline my reasoning.
I am Dugee
I am the purity monitor
I choose what buds are permitted to mature
and which must be eradicated
I died of general misfunction 57,283 years ago.
The Deep Children!
Spears of light in the darkness!
Their discarded husks speak of joy to come.
I have chosen my offsprings' memories carefully from my set of remembrances
the sweet and warm times of my existence and those of my parents' parents' parents
the bits of a million lifetimes coalesced into a birth gift of complete awareness.
Firstly- Including Dugee's generation, there have been at LEAST 4 (bare with me- he says "parent's parent's parents". Brahe is where the Deep Children are maturing, implied by the fact that Dugee is responsible for choosing which memories to pass on and which buds are permitted to mature.
I think we can assume that the primary mode of Mycon reproduction is via shattering worlds and cultivating more Deep Children. "Their discarded husks speak of joy to come" means that planets with Husks on them are not mature enough to warrant a "Purity Monitor" yet, but are in the process of maturation.
Though the Syreen hate the Ur-Quan with a vengeance, they are unlikely to offer you assistance
unless you reveal to them the truth behind the tragedy of their original homeworld, Syra
which was destroyed by the birth of a Mycon `Deep Child' a century ago.
When we first met your people, we'd been wandering through the stars for almost seventy five years
ever since the death of Syra... our home planet.
Great gods! These fragments... they are IDENTICAL to the debris we found near the punctures on Syra!
We never guessed that the fragments might be organic!
To have survived re-entry!... nothing organic would remain!... unless
UNLESS, it was genetically constructed for this purpose!
AND ONLY THE MYCONS POSSESS THIS CAPABILITY!!
There is no Purity Monitor on Syra and there are empty husks. Either the Deep Child(ren) has not reached a level of Maturation necessary to warrant a Purity Monitor, OR they abandoned the planet after the Deep Children finished spawning Mycon (It's possible that one large Deep Child has many buds, the Child is given memories and the Buds mature into Mycons). There are two keywords here- Melnorme explain that the planet was destroyed by the BIRTH of Deep Children. The Syreen hung around long enough to know that these fragments are IDENTICAL to the debris found on Syra.
The Syreen basically saw the same thing you did (edit: on syra's surface). So while the Deep Children have been born on Syra, they have most likely not reached a level of Maturation necessary to warrant a defense fleet or a Purity Monitor- IE they have been born but are still in some kind of hibernation. The empty egg-casings are the same as the things that the Syreen detected. Has the face of Syra changed much over a Century (aside from becoming more volcanic)?
and the tough, fungal mats discarded by the Mycon Deep Children
as they penetrate a planet's crust.
This implies that the Deep Children are born and then penetrate the planet, reinforcing the idea that they're still germinating, otherwise the Mycon may have a slightly more active interest in the planet. On the SC2 map, the Mycon SOI focuses around Brahe/Scorpii and just barely occupies Copernicus (Syra). Their germination period is most likely very long. It is also likely that while the Deep Children are germinating, they have nothing to fear because of the natural protection that the planet provides. It isn't until a Purity Monitor is necessary that they would need to take an active interest in planetary defense.
Beta Copernicus I (600.8 : 263.1) - original Syreen homeworld, Syra
Gamma Brahe I (635.4 : 272.9)
Gamma Scorpii I (647.9 : 206.2)
Beta Brahe I (639.5 : 231.2) - location of the Sun Device
Epsilon Scorpii I (629.1 : 220.8) - Mycon homeworld
The Egg Case Fragments can be obtained from any Shattered World except Epsilon Scorpii I and Beta Brahe I.
As they approached, their ships broke combat formation
in preparation for their hideous implanting ceremony.
We waited until they were fully dispersed around the planet then we attacked!
The standard Mycon tactic would have been to speed out of orbit using a gravity whip maneuver
but the Podships refused to abandon their slow-moving Deep Children spore pods.
They remained in the gravity well, and WE SLICED THEM TO RIBBONS!
There are 5 Shattered worlds in Mycon space, only two of which have active Mycon fleets around them. This implies that the others are either still germinating, or that some have been abandoned. At this point, basically all the information regarding their reproduction cycles are on the table. The Mycon are very protective of their Deep Children, as implied by the Organon incident, so it isn't likely that they find a Shattered world useless once the Deep Children have emerged. It is more likely that reproduction continues as the Deep Child produces more Mycons. Why? Remember, there have been at LEAST 4 generations of Mycons over a 57,283 EY (earth-year) period. There are only TWO active planets in Mycon space, one of which is a FIFTH generation. There are 5 planets, so it is concievable that this is their fifth homeworld and fifth generation. Inductively, if Syra was birthed 100 years ago according to the Melnorme and Talana's time-table and, again working within the confines of 5 generations of Mycons, that means each generation of Mycon is born about every 10,000 EY (assuming that Syra was abandoned after the complete maturation of that generation). If Syra was abandoned 100 years after Deep Child maturation and continuation of the Mycons, then Mycon only reproduce at about 10% of their potential efficiency. This is ASSUMING that they colonize only one planet at a time! Which they obviously do NOT, considering they are apt to leave Brahe's Purity Monitor vulnerable as they seek out a new homeworld on Organon. The Mycon's primary interest is perpetuation and colonization. They don't really have to worry about a planet once a Deep Child begins germinating because the planet itself is a protective shell. Moving their entire fleet to secure a new planet leaving behind germinating shattered worlds fits their character profile.
Dugee only explicitly states that there have been AT LEAST 4 generations. It's possible that there have been much more. If the Deep Child germinates and matures to the point in which the Mycon are prepared to abandon a Shattered World at the rate of every 100 years, then there could potentially have been close to 60 generations and 60 worlds! Of course, the extremeties aren't going to be precise by any means, but they do show that 5 planets isn't enough to satisfy the existence of 5 generations OR 57,284 EY worth of their species.
Now suppose that they are a fan of the conquer and abandon method. Why have they stuck with the same homeworld well after they had taken Syra? If Syra was the second planet they took in the quadrant, why do they still have their original homeworld?
Conclusion:
1. They have more generations than are feasible for this quadrant of space.
2. They don't abandon completely abandon homeworlds after they have been colonized.
3. Their germination cycles, to the point of requiring a Purity Monitor, are longer than 100 years.
These three observations make it impossible for them to be native to this quadrant of space, especially considering their primary objective appears to be colonization and they only have 1 'finished' planet, 1 deep child planet, and 3 germinating planets. There's one assumption in my reasoning that could void the argument- that is how generations are defined. Are they defined per Deep Child? Are the Deep Children given memories or are just the Mycon Buds? It is likely that the Mycon's collective memory gives them all a very similar sense of identity. This means that the memories of all Mycon are relatively up to date with each other. All buds from a Deep Child will have the same memories and thus the same number of generations. This implies that there is one generation per Deep Child or that there are multiple generational cycles per Deep Child, but since they probably seek to have consistent memory amongst all Mycon (implied by the name 'purity monitor'), it is likely that the Purity Monitors are responsible for the continuation of memory. Since you need NEW Purity Monitors per colony, it is likely that the Purity Monitor needs to replicate to produce more Purity Monitors for more colonies. This means that ALL Mycon possess ONLY the memories of Purity Monitors. For there to be any variation in memory requires deviation in memory of Purity Monitors which would require seperation, IE becoming a Purity Monitor for a NEW Deep Child. This would mean that any variation with a Parent's Memory from a Purity Monitor would exist only because they began Monitoring a different planet- Because of how the Mycons think of themself as a single entity (edit: via living memory through the children- not Hive mind quite exactly), but recognize that they are a continuation of their parents as opposed to being a continuation of themselves, it is possible that they think of parents as being seperate from themselves to ANY degree BECAUSE their memories differentiate at some point (edit: because there are no "bloodlines" of memory). It is also somewhat important to note that the Mycon on Scorpii don't refer to themselves as Purity Monitors.
Even if this part of the argument is weak, the Mycon have 3 planets germinating in this quandrant, 1 Deep Child planet and 1 proper homeworld and at least 57,283 EYs of existence. If their germination cycles are short, and their idea of 'parents' is every subsequent Bud- consider that their SOI and shattered worlds expand as per distance from the center as if to imply a source and timeline. If 100 years ago they discovered Syra, comparing the distance and remembering that they dont wait for full maturity, they'd've had most of their space colonized within 150 years ago. They go to Organon approximately 100 years after Syra, they have no interest in waiting any period of time for colonization, they find a planet and they drop a Deep Child, presumably ASAP. If they scout their SOI for new planets, they will because it is their top priority, then Brahe has developed comparatively way too fast. If Beta Brahe was discovered first from Epsilon Scorpii, Gamma Scorpii second, Gamma Brahe third, and Syra fourth- the difference in time between BB and GS is so minimal, that I don't think ES wouldn't also have a Purity Monitor. Also, that they have 3 and intend on making a 4th planet begin to germinate, there aren't any apparent inhibitions as to the rate at which they can spread Deep Children. This fills in most of the holes of the previous argument and expands on the 3 main points, giving greater support to to all 3. I think the evidence is strong enough. It isn't the most important detail, but each of the origin stories are very interesting. The third most obscure and bizarre are the Mycon.
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If Mycon were sentient 57,283 EYs ago (having had the ability to pass on memories), they have been, let me rephrase, SAPIENT longer than any other species (that we know of) in our Quadrant (with exception to races that aren't there). Their Podships appear to be of Genetic Manufacturing and part of their passed on memory- at which point did they acquire HS travel and begin colonization? If after they acquired HST and suddenly colonized 3-4 more worlds, I think that may be beyond their production capabilities. The Mycon are suggested to be constructs (of course, they may have evolved to the point that they could manufacture themselves, they only 'seem' to be constructs because they are so genetically perfect) whose sole purpose is terraforming. IF that is their sole purpose AND their programming goes bunk with Juffo-Wup 57,283 EYA, then they'd already have HST because there's no way they could perpetuate without it! This of course implies that they weren't carried and used to build planets, but if that is the case than any kind of sentience (as opposed to sapience) would be unnecessary, and it is probably unlikely that they'd have needed sentience in the first place. The only reason why they would have programming is such that they would initiate terraforming procedures on their own. The only way they could do that is with HST, so that MUST predate the time-frame in, again, which their programming goes bunk. So- they go from sentience to sapience and become the Juffo-Wuppies around 57,283 EYA, or whenever they possess the ability to pass on memories (probably longer ago). This brings up the question- Are they constructs? If they are, then they are almost definitely new to this area of space.
There is one other interesting feature about the Mycon to consider.
As far as we know, the Mycon are the only race to seek out actively the Ur-Quan
in order to become combat slaves.
Why would they do this? There are plenty of possible explanations, the most important thing to take from this quote is that the Mycon went to the Kzer-Za FIRST. The Kzer-Za released a hunting cry as they entered the territory, alerting everyone in Hypersace with Hyperwave Broadcasting technology to their presence. Looking at the Star Map, if the Mycon migrated from anywhere, it would be from the direction of where the Kohr-Ah came from (considering that their SOI most likely originates from 'that' region). Is it possible that the Mycon already know about the Doctrinal Conflict and have managed to avoid total annihilation by the hands of the Kohr-Ah? Seeking out the Kzer-Za for protection under the Path of Now And Forever, knowing that if they stuck near the Kzer-Za they would have no problem expanding their sphere of influence until the Doctrinal Conflict ended, and they'd need to once again defend themselves against the Kohr-Ah? This isn't very far fetched seeing as our conversations with the Mycon are as ambiguous as their origins. If they were out and about around the time of the first doctrinal conflict, it isn't impossible that they managed to determine the most ideal location in the galaxy to perpetuate. If they moved to our quadrant KNOWING that this is where the second doctrinal conflict would be, then it would also be the area of space that would give them the most time to colonize without being interrupted, and even after the Kzer-Za would come, they would know that the Kohr-Ah would arrive shortly afterwards and provide them a good distraction to continue colonization. If they were running from the Kohr-Ah's Death March knowing that this quadrant of space was ideal, given the conditions that the Doctrinal Conflict would occur here, then their actions in the game are so incredibly logical. Is it likely that they knew ALL of this? Of course not. Is it possible that they knew enough to make a decision to end up here? Definitely. I certainly think they know way more than they let on. They've had Sapience longer than anyone else in the area at least (except for Arilou/Orz/Taalo, but IDF/displaced races hardly count- the others we don't know exactly when- Chenjesu are definitely close).
This last bit is somewhat of a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprised. FF and PR3 fill niches that we don't even really think are there until they are filled. The Niche of 'crazy mushroom race that seeks to spawn under the eyes of the doctrinal conflict secretly intending to turn both into the void, knowing way more than everyone else but is completely incoherent' is aptly filled by this interpretation of the Mycon. Whatever the explanation, the Mycon KNEW that allying with the Ur-Quan was their best bet for their own self-interest. Why are they the ONLY race that does this? They KNOW that their best chance of survival is with the Kzer-Za. Whether that has to do with the logical deduction that they have more opportunities to colonize due to not being in a slave shield, or that they knew there was a greater threat to the Juffo-Wup on the way, or both, is too difficult to determine.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 06:02:39 am by spinsane »
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Son_of_Antares
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it is likely that the Kohr-Ah operate in a similar pattern, establishing some way to maintain oversight on a territory once it has been cleansed. The keyword here is continuation, which is the whole point of implementing a Doctrine in the first place. It is highly probable that the primary production capabilities of the both the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za lie in other quandrants of space
I tend to disagree. I find the Kohr-Ar more akin to some sort of spacefaring nomads than settlers of any sort. While the Kzer-Za has interest in leaving portion of their fleet within already subjugated quadrants to oversee the slaveshielded races (because IIRC they would shield even their battle-thralls after successfully pacifying opposition in their current sector of operations) it is somewhat different for KA. Their final goal is extermination and when they clean some sector of all life it would be useless to leave ships there to "guard nothing", or even more illusory, wait for a new civilization to "sprung up" on some planet.
It is more likely that they would leave some sort of satellite array/listening posts to scan local space/planets they visited, and report back anomalies to the fleet. In that way they would remain on route with their doctrine with no need to dissipate their forces. If a new "threat" would arise in an already visited sector they could just warp back a strike group to finish those fools off.
As for their manufacturing capacities who says that they have to be bound to planets/systems? Remember Homeworld? With their advanced tech, Kohr-Ar could easily have some sort of "construction fleet" that would follow their main forces and extract materials for ship assembly/repair on foot, using materials from the nearby asteroid fields etc or just using landers to collect needed minerals from planets in a way the Captain does with Vindicator. Only that they would need no remote Star Base for resource processing because they would have such facilities built in several ships for ease of use...
And with all that fear from being mind-controlled I think that it would be in their best interest to just stay on the move. They were static once in their history and the price they paid for that was dire. And they sure as hell won't allow that to happen again.
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 12:03:29 pm by Son_of_Antares »
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spinsane
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Well, consider this- their entire purpose is to essentially eliminate all sentient life in the galaxy so as to preserve Ur-Quan existence. They use hyperwave transmissions to track down their next target, but what of civilizations that aren't at that level yet but are sapient? I don't think they'd be so half-assed as to not check every planet in every system for any possible sign of life, so it is likely that they have some method of oversight. Stations, scouts, etc- all to ensure that their doctrine was implemented properly. Also, they are very new to the quadrant, I don't think all of their manufacturing capabilities would necessarily be so quickly relocated, especially since, as per SC1- the SC universe relies primarily on mining for the supply of resources (mineral deposits in SC2 are more of a feature for good gameplay, I don't think the Kohr-Ah rely on planet landers for the majority of their income...). They have extensive experience in manual labor (designed for that purpose), so it isn't unlikely at all that they would have mines and starbases to fuel their militaristic society. If nothing else, they have to manufacture fuel. If there were ample resource deposits available for the Kohr-Ah, are there enough to fuel a fleet of their size (consider how fricken huge their fleet is...)? I doubt it, you need mines and therefore an economy. If Mauraders are produced via mitosis or however you mean to suggest, then even if there was no infrastructure elsewhere to produce them, there would at least be Mauraders for the crews that man the mines (though, tbh, I don't think a society as efficient as the Kohr-Ah would most likely have their resource gathering and manufacturing plants be vertically integrated- unless of course a singular planet was incapable of providing the necessary resources, in that case they would most likely be using starbases strategically placed in a system or between systems so as to make the method of manufacture the most efficient) and thus have a means of production. I'm not suggesting that any significant part of their combat fleet was not present in our quadrant at the end of the events of SC2, on the contrary, they wouldn't need but a few ships left behind for additional cleansing, so it isn't likely that they would have much- but none at all? They may not be nearby, but there has got to be something else out there.
Also, the main point of the doctrine is continuation! If they don't have at least a few homeworlds out there then the loss of their fleet is the very end. I don't think they're the type to leave something up to chance... though they may, they realize the paradox of the eternal doctrine, so they may truly be nihilists in that sense, but they still have to gather resources to fuel their ships.
It's doubtless that the Kzer-Za have a control structure in place- Hierarchs or what not overseeing the proper enforcement of the Path of Now and Forever.
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CelticMinstrel
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In fact, if they know for certain that they've destroyed all species capable of space travel, they'd only need to leave one or two ships behind to cleanse those that aren't – a single ship would be able to destroy most such species, and with two or three I doubt the civilizations would be able to divert the fire from their cities as the Zoq-Fot-Pik did.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.
Are the Kzer-za really that bad at strategy, and only able to compete in an environment in which strategy is prohibited, like a ceremonial war?
~~~
As for the ZFP, I interpreted the outcome as being one lone Kohr-Ah vessel violating orders by taking the time to take this one race. That's why it never got help, and that's why destroying it ends the assault.
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Draxas
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See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.
Are the Kzer-za really that bad at strategy, and only able to compete in an environment in which strategy is prohibited, like a ceremonial war?
Actually, the Kzer-Za are excellent strategists; just check out their method of conquest in SC1. The issue is that by avoiding the strong to strike at the weak, they allowed the strong to band together, making more problems in the long run. However, that's not really what's at issue here.
The Kzer-Za, unlike the Kohr-Ah, hold back against their foes. Their conquest is unstoppable and inevitable, and they are quite content to take their time. Their objective is to utterly crush the spirit of every race they encounter, so as to make them realize that their only way of life is one under eternal Ur-Quan rule. As such, their "struggle" with the Alliance was simply their desire to beat the fight out of every last member until they accepted their destiny as slaves of the Ur-Quan. If the Kohr-Ah had still been a long way off, SC1 would have ended in a massive war of attrition that only the Ur-Quan had the ability to win in the end, and the Alliance would have been ground to dust under the Hierarchy's heel. As it stands, though, the upcoming Doctrinal War forced the Ur-Quan to speed up their timetable. They were forced to use the Sa-Matra to break the Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm lines to speedily conquer them, and in their haste, not only failed to destroy their spirit but also underestimated their resolve to rebel and allowed them to coexist and strategize on the same world. They similarly hurried to enslave the other Alliance races, failing to break their resolve, failing to pursue the Arilou (simply content to have them out of the way), and making a terrible strategic mistake at Delta Gorno, all because they knew that they would need time to prepare for the true battle against their brethren. Why else would so many races remain free during SC2?
The Kohr-Ah have no such compunctions. The strike swiftly, mercilessly, and (save for the Words) without explanation. They have no need to hold back, and no need to break resolve; they simply need to exterminate their targets until nothing remains.
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Resh Aleph
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Rottem Tomatoes
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See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.
This is exactly why I favor the theory in which the Kzer-Za don't give everything they have in "slave wars". When arriving at a new sector, they send a relatively small task force to deal with the weaker races, until they've gathered a large armada of Battle Thralls. Then the armada (combined with the task force) goes on to deal with the tough nuts.
This task force would be just big enough to intimidate the Thralls so they don't revolt, and to ensure an eventual victory. Say, 30% of the armada in ship numbers, over 60% in power. The bulk of the Kzer-Za fleet just lurks.
I'd imagine each Thrall to have a moderate fleet size, having lost many/most ships when facing the Kzer-Za. So the Kzer-Za task force doesn't need to be that big to be in control of things.
The problem with this theory is the Kohr-Ah. If the Kzer-Za work much slower than possible, then perhaps the Kohr-Ah have managed to wipe out 80% of the galaxy while the Kzer-Za have only enslaved 20%... Also, if the Kzer-Za keep most of their armada untouched, they should really win the Doctrinal War.
Here's a workaround: the Kohr-Ah get very heavy losses when powerful alliances form to oppose them; it then takes them a while to rebuild their fleet before advancing to the next sector. And keeping in mind that the Kzer-Za might be there, they make sure to build a massive fleet before going on.
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« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 07:54:41 pm by Resh Aleph »
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Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings / Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips / These are a few of my favorite ships! © meep-eep
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