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Author Topic: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!  (Read 27374 times)
Shiver
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2009, 02:05:32 am »

Also I think we'd be remiss to ignore the Rock-Paper-Scissors elements of balance. What is effective against one foe is not always effective against another, in real life and particularly in Star Control. The weapons of humans proved devastating against the much larger and more expensive Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts, presumably one reason the Chenjesu wanted us in particular.

These discussions are usually TL;DR to me, but this bit got my attention.

I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story? There are some examples of this floating around such as the Utwig giving the Kohr-Ah a bloody nose or Hayes talking about dreading possible encounters with Ilwrath and Androsynth back during the events of SC1, but not enough of this to really support the notion that all of the various melee intricacies should be treated as canon. It is a very abstract game, after all.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2009, 02:21:48 am »

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I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story?

It doesn't, never meant to imply it did. There are minor ship classes we do not see in Melee (source: Hayes), Melee does not take in account 3d dimensional space or multi-ship battles and Melee doesn't even have bearing on things like a race's infrastructure and support systems.

However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles. I really did not mean to imply that Human technology in general was a trump card vs Ur-Quan because I happened to speak vaguely. Melee is however the cornerstone of the game and we have to assume it has some relation to the game world, however abstracted. The major Earthling design of the time happened to be cheaper to make and quite effective against the Dreadnaughts. That  means something. The ship effectiveness relations are far from the begin all and end all but they are real. You listed plenty of examples yourself. Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts and getting F.R.I.E.D by Maruaders.
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Shiver
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2009, 02:42:19 am »

Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts[...]

This never happens in competitive PVP. A seasoned player exploiting the AI's shortcomings can pull this off, but a seasoned player exploiting the AI's shortcomings can pull off pretty much any ridiculous thing imaginable. The Zoq-Fot-Pik likely mean that the Kohr-Ah are better at finding them, not fighting them. It should be obvious that either Ur-Quan subspecies would easily plow through a Zoq-Fot-Pik outpost or fleet upon finding it.
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spinsane
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2009, 05:30:32 am »

Wow, Anarch Cassius, umm... Your opening paragraphs don't really provide any meritable evidence to support your claim.

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The Kohr-Ah do not have the Sa-Mattra.
Irrelevant.

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The Kohr-Ah do not have allied or slave races to provide greater diversity of forces.

There is no indication that this is actually an advantage. There is a great deal of energy and time lost in the maintenance of bureacracy and slavery. The Kohr-Ah possess a pedigree based in manual labor. Their ability to acquire resources, build ships, and maintain their fleet is probably better in many aspects. According to events in the game, had it not  been for Delta Gorno, the combat effectivity of both the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za fleets would've basically been the same.

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The Kohr-Ah have previously lost against the Kzer-za in war.
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It is likely that they would have annihilated each other
were it not for a chance discovery by a Kzer-Za -- a Precursor Battleship!
Ya... no. Obviously the only reason why anybody won was because the Sa-Matra was discovered.

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Pretty much every race that had been in Hierarchy would have been with us, they weren't called by the Chenjesu before because they'd been enslaved already but I can't think of one of them that wouldn't join the Alliance against the Kohr-Ah.

Each race would be driven by a great degree of self-interest. The alliance would suffer heavily from diminution.

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When your people on Earth were defeated, the Alliance just plain fell apart.

As per the conversation with Talana, the thread keeping the Alliance together was Detroit Muscle. After Earth fell, the Alliance members resorted to self-preservation with no apparent interest in defending anyone else since doing so was at an apparently great threat to themselves. Can you imagine the Mycon yielding a certain area for a tactical counter-offensive? Can you imagine having to defend such a huge region of space? The Kohr-Ah don't have to defend anything, they can strike multiple opponents and shift the focus of their attacks, just like the Kzer-Za did.

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I forsee the outcome of such a hypothetical war being assured Alliance victory but also assured is the extinction of approximately half the sentient life in this quadrant before they can be stoppped.

In the most difficult scenario for the Kohr-Ah (which they still win btw), the Kohr-Ah have to defeat the Ilwrath, Thraddash, Umgah, Vux, Spathi, Mycon, Supox, Utwig, Druuge, Yehat, ZFP, Burvixese, HS-Arilou, HS-Orz, Pkunk, AND the Kzer-Za within the timeline in our quadrant. Most of these races are at full-strength or stronger than what they would've been before Kzer-Za enslavement (as the Kzer-Za upgraded most of the battle thrall ships). I don't see alliance forces having a chance without 60% or so of the Kzer-Za combat fleet also there. This is really the most critical observation- if you play SC2 and don't do a damn thing, you've got about 16 races that the Kohr-Ah dominate without any problems before you lose.

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When we fought the Hierarchy about half the races here became thralls and we lost in the end because of the Sa-mattra. Those slaves provided the Kzer-za with valuable infrastructure.

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Chmmr:
TWO: BECAUSE THE UR-QUAN LOST SO MANY SHIPS WHEN THE SHOFIXTI CAUSED THEIR OWN SUN TO FLARE
THE KOHR-AH'S FORCES ARE GROSSLY SUPERIOR TO THE UR-QUAN.

Norme:
The resulting storm of solar flares cooked the life off the Shofixti homeworld
and incinerated over a hundred Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts

Yehat:
devastating the inner system planets, but incinerating ALL the Ur-Quan vessels!
In that moment, the Hierarchy's war fleet was reduced by almost thirty percent.

The primary reason why the Kohr-Ah win the doctrinal war, according to the Chmmr, is due to the damage done to the Kzer-Za fleet at Delta Gorno by the Shofixti. So 30% of their fleet was at Delta Gorno, some of their Fleet must've been straggling throughout various areas in between Sol and the Yehat region of space, otherwise the Queen wouldn't've had anyone to surrender to. Chances are there was another chunk of Ur-Quan fleet sneaking around to the Yehat homeworld and lets just say conservatively that about 50% of their fleet was fighting Chenjesu and Mmrn forces at Rigel.

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Holding Rigel cost grievously in Chenjesu forces and the Ur-Quan, recognizing this weakness
shifted to focus the brunt of their forces on Procyon.

After grievous losses at Rigel they fall back on Procyon and then get raped by the Sa-Matra. Pretty much every historical reference suggests that the Kzer-Za could've singlehandedly raped without battle thralls. Was the Sa-Matra critical? The history in the game doesn't really imply that at all. They apparently used it to end the battle against the Chenjesu so they could prepare for the Kohr-Ah. There would've been no real need to use it other than to speed things up for the Doctrinal Conflict.

No offense, the idea of Kohr-Ah losing or winning a death march in our quadrant is something that can be debated, but most everything you've brought up is either inaccurate or baseless speculation.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:42:28 am by spinsane » Logged
CelticMinstrel
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2009, 05:51:12 am »

You know, come to think of it, it's quite likely the Mycon would join an alliance if the Kohr-Ah arrived first, for similar reasons that they joined the Ur-Quan in SC1.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #140 on: June 30, 2009, 08:16:37 am »

However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles.

Explanations:

1. Just a theory - perhaps the Mmrnmhrm gave the Cruiser's design an upgrade at the beginning of the Slave War? Better homing systems and range for missiles and PDL?

2. In the game reality, there is no limit on the number of ships participating in a battle. I suspect that Cruisers, being cheap/easy to produce, gain much of their effectiveness from numbers. This cannot be truly reflected in melee: three Cruisers would be much more potent attacking a Dreadnought together, than attacking it one by one. So the Cruiser's melee effectiveness could be seen as a compensation for this.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #141 on: June 30, 2009, 08:36:41 am »

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I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story?

It doesn't, never meant to imply it did. There are minor ship classes we do not see in Melee (source: Hayes), Melee does not take in account 3d dimensional space or multi-ship battles and Melee doesn't even have bearing on things like a race's infrastructure and support systems.

However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles. I really did not mean to imply that Human technology in general was a trump card vs Ur-Quan because I happened to speak vaguely. Melee is however the cornerstone of the game and we have to assume it has some relation to the game world, however abstracted. The major Earthling design of the time happened to be cheaper to make and quite effective against the Dreadnaughts. That  means something. The ship effectiveness relations are far from the begin all and end all but they are real. You listed plenty of examples yourself. Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts and getting F.R.I.E.D by Maruaders.

Or you could actually find sources.

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During the Ur-Quan Slave War, the Broodhome was the only Alliance ship that the Ur-Quan considered to be a meaningful threat to the Hierarchy forces.

As per the original SC1 manual.

The starbucks system roughly balances the ships. IT takes about 3 cruisers to kill a dreadnought, that's a 9x3:30. Most ships follow this same pattern, though in some circumstances the ship's characteristics are too quirky for another ship to deal with.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 08:46:09 am by spinsane » Logged
Shiver
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #142 on: June 30, 2009, 06:35:08 pm »

Or you could actually find sources.

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During the Ur-Quan Slave War, the Broodhome was the only Alliance ship that the Ur-Quan considered to be a meaningful threat to the Hierarchy forces.

As per the original SC1 manual.

The starbucks system roughly balances the ships. IT takes about 3 cruisers to kill a dreadnought, that's a 9x3:30. Most ships follow this same pattern, though in some circumstances the ship's characteristics are too quirky for another ship to deal with.

You think a couple vague lines in SC1's manual are a good indicator of how melee plays out? Really? There's a 15 point Androsynth that wants a word with you. The ships might be closer to balanced in SC1's metagame with the smaller arena, but they certainly aren't balanced in SC2's engine.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 06:38:47 pm by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #143 on: June 30, 2009, 06:51:21 pm »

There is canonical evidence that outlines what the Ur-Quan considered a threat during the events of SC1 (as per the cruiser vs dreadnought example).

I was NOT implying this line had ANYTHING to do with Melee, I was merely outlining that, during the Slave War, the Ur-Quan didn't consider anything but the Broodhome a meaningful threat.

1v1 ship to ship combat has no relevance on what races beat which in fights. I was only attempting to point that out by also showing how the starbucks point system doesn't reflect this because, point-wise, cruisers beat dreadnoughts.

I mean, tbh, one Jugger should kill a million Mauraders, that's obviously not the case on a macroscopic level, according to the events in the game.
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Shiver
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #144 on: June 30, 2009, 07:15:31 pm »

Fair enough, I'll leave you be then.


I mean, tbh, one Jugger should kill a million Mauraders, that's obviously not the case on a macroscopic level, according to the events in the game.

It's not that easy, but again I'm using PVP standards. There isn't really a right way to judge melee since most players never touch PVP, a good player will demolish the AI in the most skewed circumstances and awesome cyborg vs awesome cyborg means that many ships will be played nowhere near their full potential (Orz) while others are just short of flawlessness (Slylandro).
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #145 on: June 30, 2009, 08:19:52 pm »

What do PVP standards (or PVC or CVC for that matter) have to do with the continuity of the story? Wait, why did you bring it up? I can't seem to figure that out....

The Torch and the Jugger are two of the best ships for melee, and yet they get raped in the story. I could kill hundreds of Avengers with a single Torch and hundreds of Mauraders with a single Jugger....
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Shiver
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #146 on: June 30, 2009, 11:02:24 pm »

What do PVP standards (or PVC or CVC for that matter) have to do with the continuity of the story? Wait, why did you bring it up? I can't seem to figure that out....

The Torch and the Jugger are two of the best ships for melee, and yet they get raped in the story. I could kill hundreds of Avengers with a single Torch and hundreds of Mauraders with a single Jugger....

The point I've been arguing is that melee tendencies don't pertain to plot discussions, and it looks like you agree. I brought up PvP as a response to "one Jugger should kill a million Marauders", a statement that would only have some grounding in reality if you were playing PvC. Your statement illustrates nicely why PvC is a big joke even when the discussion is of melee itself, not Star Control's plot.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #147 on: July 04, 2009, 04:25:59 pm »

You know, come to think of it, it's quite likely the Mycon would join an alliance if the Kohr-Ah arrived first, for similar reasons that they joined the Ur-Quan in SC1.

There is strong evidence that the Mycon voluntarily submit to their enemy if they know to be outmatched, and then wait for an opportunity to crush them. For example, they joined the Hierarchy voluntarily. Also, one of the things the Mycon say hints towards this.

Therefore, I think they would more likely join the Kohr-Ah and wait for them to show their weakness, and then strike. After all, the Kohr-Ah do mention that they don't destroy races that promise to annihilate all intelligent life, including themselves. The Mycon could agree to this, and then attack the Kohr-Ah when they are weakest (meaning they would actually betray their promise to destroy themselves). Conveniently, the doctrinal war would provide such an opportunity.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2009, 01:21:23 am »

Good call, but that only hurts the Alliance's chances even more. The Mycon have long maturation cycles that occur deep in the core of planets, they could hide in planetary cores while the Kohr-Ah pass over, sacrificing most of their fleet to help the Kohr-Ah to hide the fact that they are difficult to detect when they're hiding in boiling lead... LOL- the only race likely to survive the Death March are the absolute worst of the bunch.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2009, 01:37:17 am »

Good call, but that only hurts the Alliance's chances even more. The Mycon have long maturation cycles that occur deep in the core of planets, they could hide in planetary cores while the Kohr-Ah pass over, sacrificing most of their fleet to help the Kohr-Ah to hide the fact that they are difficult to detect when they're hiding in boiling lead... LOL- the only race likely to survive the Death March are the absolute worst of the bunch.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Deep Children, which are not Mycon; rather, they are tools used to create an ideal environment for the Mycon. So no, I don't think the Mycon could do that.

EDIT: I don't think they would do that anyways, because they would want to destroy the Kohr-Ah, not just hide and let them pass over.
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