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Topic: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated! (Read 36768 times)
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jaychant
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The Orz would also be a force to reckon with, wouldn't they be right in the Kohr-Ah's path?
The Orz didn't exist yet...
Don't forget, the only reason the Alliance lost was because the Sa-Matra decimated the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm fleets. That wouldn't be an issue. If the Kohr-Ah were truly only slightly stronger than the Kzer-Za, the Alliance would have more than a chance, especially with the more urgent Arilou help.
You fail to recognize the difference in doctrine...
The Mycon are unknown to everyone before the war in SC1, which means they are silently exterminated. With that, the Kohr-Ah likely move against the Yehat. Even if the Yehat have the ability to warn of the attack (which would include Chenjesu, starting the ball rolling for an Alliance), they would also be wiped out before anyone could help them, thus crushing the primary military backbone of the original Alliance.
The Yehat were very strong militarily due to their warlike nature. They would easily be able to hold their own long enough for help to arrive even if they weren't combined with the Shofixti (I think it would take around 6-8 months to cleanse them, and it wouldn't take more than a few months for significant help to arrive from the Chenjesu). Then when they arrived, the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm would protect the Yehat at all costs while at the same time negotiating with neighboring species back at home. Chances are, the Chenjesu would succeed in forming alliances with the Humans and Pkunk, but no one else. But the Arilou, upon the Human entrance into the war, would appear just like in the real scenario. So Humans, Pkunk, and Arilou would send ships to protect the Yehat from extermination.
Pkunk (if the Chenjesu even know of their existence yet, which is doubtful, since they weren't recruited in SC1
The Chenjesu knew of the Pkunk's existance durint SC1. They probably didn't fight because the Pkunk are not a warlike species. They didn't want to fight. In fact, if you think about it, when you mention you want an alliance with the Pkunk, they say, "The fight. Always the fight. We Pkunk are Yin, and you are Yang." This seems to imply that the Pkunk have been asked something similar before, and they didn't want any part of it. However, the Pkunk would never let the Yehat get exterminated by the Kohr-Ah. If they considered them to be in real danger, they would no doubt have come to their aid.
One interesting thing is the Pkunk might get some spiritual message telling them of the impending Kohr-Ah threat, and then would warn other races, also guided by spirits.
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Draxas
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It seems odd that the Kohr-Ah had no trouble wiping out half the galaxy, and yet they should fail here. Imagine what advanced and powerful alliances they must have faced during their long journey here. I recall the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah saying they have witnessed countless alliances form in order to stop them, and all have failed. I can't seem to find this quote now though. 
This is pretty much the exact point I was about to make. Why are we so special, that we can stop the unstoppable force? We're just another sector of the galaxy, like the ones that Kohr-Ah have been cleansing for millennia. In fact, considering the relatively commonplace nature of the Precursor Bombs (2 in our sector alone, so probably not a coincidence), both Ur-Quan species have probably faced them used as weapons or suicide tools before, and simply rebuild gradually as they continue their doctrinal paths. The fact that the Kzer-Za fared so badly in SC2 was probably due to lousy timing more than anything else. We don't have anything to throw at the Ur-Quan that they haven't seen before.
I also don't understand why anyone thinks any particular race could singlehandedly hold off the Kohr-Ah at all. Look at the Death March; any given race is exterminated practically instantly once the Kohr-Ah reach their homeworld, and they never have to slow their pace even slightly. This is after a brutal, multi-year war of attrition against the Kzer-Za, as well as (potentially) harassment from the Utwig and Supox that delayed the outcome of said war for a full year. Not only are the Kohr-Ah forces not reduced in any significant way by this activity, they then proceed to singlehandedly stroll about the sector, exterminating every sentient they come across as if there were no resistance in their way. How could anyone hope to stand against that sort of might on their own? They can't.
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UAF
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I think most people dont' consider the Death March as any indication to the Kohr-ah might, but as a game mechanic representation.
Besides, there is no alliance against the Death March.
Although I'd like to point out that I do think that the Korh-ah will win the war if they'll arrive first.
I'm merley arguing about who they'll attack first, and what alliance will be formed against them.
Since the Kzer-za failed completly at discovering the ZFP existance, I think it's safe to say that the Kohr-ah won't find them any faster, and will move against the Mycon after cleanseing the Utwig and Supox. (BTW, why do we think they know about the Utwig? Maybe they'll go Bruxivise, Druuge and then Mycon?).
Also, I'd like to point out that the Mrn know about the Spathi, and the Chenjesu know about the Pkunk and possibly the Umgah. So I think those races will be recruited.
Since I tend to give credit to the Androsynth, unless they'll be exterminated by a surprise Kohr-ah attack, I think that they'll join the Alliance IF they'll discover about the Korh-ah.
As for the Syreen - they stumbled into Human space the last time, undetected by the Ur-quan while on their way. MAYBE they'll manage to do the same again.
At the end, it is still most likely that the Korh-ah shall prevail, unless the Arilou will decide to do some serious wizerdy.
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CaptainGuy
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lolz what gets me is why they haven't fixed their turning speed yet  Hey at least it's free money...
Hands-down the Kohr-Ah are my favorite characters... Too bad I can't convince any of them to join my against their enemies >_>
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SuddenDeath
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UAF> I seem to recall that the Kohr-Ah had just initiated hostilities with the Utwig, but then found out anout the Kzer-Za presence so they stopped the Utwig cleansing and instead went straight for the Kzer-Za.
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Draxas
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I think most people don't consider the Death March as any indication to the Kohr-ah might, but as a game mechanic representation.
Besides, there is no alliance against the Death March.
Both statements are true (depending on interpretation). However, I see the Death March as a quite effective demonstration of what happens to lone races that wind up in the path of the Kohr-Ah: regardless of strength, they are quickly steamrolled and exterminated to the last, without the Kohr-Ah even slowing their pace.
Since the Kzer-za failed completly at discovering the ZFP existance, I think it's safe to say that the Kohr-ah won't find them any faster, and will move against the Mycon after cleansing the Utwig and Supox. (BTW, why do we think they know about the Utwig? Maybe they'll go Bruxivise, Druuge and then Mycon?).
I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two. There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved. If they were first managing to get spaceborne at that point (or perhaps were even uplifted by the Chenjesu), then the Kzer-Za were already concerned with their timetable and finishing off the Alliance before the Kohr-Ah arrived, so they would have ignored such a minor threat until after the Doctrinal Conflict was done. I don't really think it's a matter of not detecting them; they're sitting right inside Ur-Quan space.
The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion.
Also, I'd like to point out that the Mrn know about the Spathi, and the Chenjesu know about the Pkunk and possibly the Umgah. So I think those races will be recruited.
The Mmrnhrm had a single pre-war contact with the Spathi, and it was polite and curt. If they were such good friends, why didn't the Mmrnhrm try to contact them to join the alliance before they were enslaved?
I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently.
It is questionable whether anyone besides the Arilou and Spathi knew about the Umgah before the war. Even if they were known to the Chenjesu, they're both weak and a crazy wildcard: They're as likely to fight against the alliance as for them (at least initially, until they discover the immensity of the Kohr-Ah threat; by then it may be too late) for a laugh.
Since I tend to give credit to the Androsynth, unless they'll be exterminated by a surprise Kohr-ah attack, I think that they'll join the Alliance IF they'll discover about the Korh-ah.
The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own.
As for the Syreen - they stumbled into Human space the last time, undetected by the Ur-quan while on their way. MAYBE they'll manage to do the same again.
They didn't stumble into Human space, they were forced there by VUX raiding parties that were attacking their hab-fleet. Whether this was an independent action or an Ur-Quan sanctioned one is questionable, but the VUX wouldn't be as concerned with raids if they were fighting for their lives against the Kohr-Ah.
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jaychant
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Draxas, I think you're forcing your assumptions on your opinion, and some of your assumptions are false or irrelevant.
I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two.
There is no indication that the Ur-Quan ever found the ZFP and it was also stated by the ZFP that the two races never found their homeworld, only their colony planets. If that isn't convincing enough, you should notice that upon seeing the planet, a Kohr-Ah ship started attacking the ZFP homeworld in an attempt to exterminate the species. If the Ur-Quan had known where the ZFP were, there is no reason the Kohr-Ah wouldn't know, so why did they wait so long to attack the ZFP?
There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved.
This is a bad assumption. There is no indication as to when the ZFP or Pkunk first had contact with the Chenjesu. You forget that the ZFP couldn't even fight off a single Kohr-Ah Marauder. In the same way that the Thraddash wouldn't have been of any significant help, the ZFP wouldn't have been of any significant help.
The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion.
I wish you would refresh your memory about the game. It was the Utwig themselves who mention this, not the Melnorme. The Utwig say that the Kohr-Ah came to them and suddenly attacked them. The Utwig found out how to use their ships to effectively fight the Kohr-Ah, but the Kohr-Ah ships were too numerous and it looked like they would be destroyed. But then, all of a sudden, the Kohr-Ah turned away (it is assumed that this is for the doctrinal conflict).
I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently.
If you recall, the Pkunk would not join the Captain in a formal alliance, only offering spiritual guidance. Again, you assume that the Pkunk would definitely help if they were known. If that was the case, they would have surely helped in the final defense of the Chenjesu homeworld at least. You also forget that the Chenjesu couldn't find the Pkunk and ZFP when they were nearly defeated and then just happen to mention them to the other alliance races.
The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own.
There is a possibility that with their advanced technology, the Androsynth would be able to detect the massive conflict and volunteer to help against the impending threat of destruction.
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Draxas
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I finally found the dialog page again. Maybe now I can speak with the authority you so crave.
Draxas, I think you're forcing your assumptions on your opinion, and some of your assumptions are false or irrelevant.
Maybe so. Only in places where things are not clearly spelled out, which are pretty much open to interpretation. In that case, who decides what is false or irrelevant? There's no evidence either way.
I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two. There is no indication that the Ur-Quan ever found the ZFP and it was also stated by the ZFP that the two races never found their homeworld, only their colony planets. If that isn't convincing enough, you should notice that upon seeing the planet, a Kohr-Ah ship started attacking the ZFP homeworld in an attempt to exterminate the species. If the Ur-Quan had known where the ZFP were, there is no reason the Kohr-Ah wouldn't know, so why did they wait so long to attack the ZFP?
If both races had found colonies, then both knew of their existence. It's not too much of a stretch to think that they would ignore them for the time being (though collateral damage against their colonies only furthers both Ur-Quan agendas). The lone Kohr-Ah seems to be a straggler, and having found another ZFP world (presumably, it would make no difference whether it was the homeworld or not to the Kohr-Ah) and no Kzer-Za around to engage in combat, set about following the Eternal Doctrine. There's no reason not to assume that both races know exactly where the ZFP are, and leave them alone because they are too busy to deal with them currently, and the ZFP are no threat.
There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved. This is a bad assumption. There is no indication as to when the ZFP or Pkunk first had contact with the Chenjesu. You forget that the ZFP couldn't even fight off a single Kohr-Ah Marauder. In the same way that the Thraddash wouldn't have been of any significant help, the ZFP wouldn't have been of any significant help.
The Alliance was desperate, and would have gladly accepted help from any race, significant or not. Only the Ur-Quan really had the luxury of having such overwhelming might that they could tell their weaker "allies" to stay home and not worry about the war because they can handle it.
The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion. I wish you would refresh your memory about the game. It was the Utwig themselves who mention this, not the Melnorme. The Utwig say that the Kohr-Ah came to them and suddenly attacked them. The Utwig found out how to use their ships to effectively fight the Kohr-Ah, but the Kohr-Ah ships were too numerous and it looked like they would be destroyed. But then, all of a sudden, the Kohr-Ah turned away (it is assumed that this is for the doctrinal conflict).
So very sorry my memory is a bit faulty. I'll try to acquire a more encyclopedic knowledge of the game dialog from now on. Please forgive me? 
And so my review of the dialog puts another nail in the coffin for the Utwig - Supox holding back the Kohr-Ah in any meaningful way. As they say themselves any time they discuss their battles against the Kohr-Ah, "losses were high." There is no way the two of them could hold off the entire, undistracted armada on their own (since any other races they would know about would be exterminated by then). In fact, the Kohr-Ah know of the Utwig not only because of the Burvixese, but because the Utwig themselves tried to initiate contact with the Kohr-Ah. It seems pretty obvious that they are going to be an early target in light of that.
I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently. If you recall, the Pkunk would not join the Captain in a formal alliance, only offering spiritual guidance. Again, you assume that the Pkunk would definitely help if they were known. If that was the case, they would have surely helped in the final defense of the Chenjesu homeworld at least. You also forget that the Chenjesu couldn't find the Pkunk and ZFP when they were nearly defeated and then just happen to mention them to the other alliance races.
I can't see why the Pkunk wouldn't help. Besides their spiritual guidance, they also grant "crass, material offerings" in the form of ships fairly frequently. It's also worth noting that they are embroiled in a war with the Ilwrath during SC2, which might be a contributing factor as to why they won't lend more substantial support to the New Alliance. Since the Ilwrath only moved after the end of the old Alliance, the Pkunk wouldn't have been fighting anyone during the events of SC1. The only reason to believe that they wouldn't have lent a hand against the "larger yang" is because it was too late to matter.
The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own. There is a possibility that with their advanced technology, the Androsynth would be able to detect the massive conflict and volunteer to help against the impending threat of destruction.
They certainly didn't detect (or simply ignored) the massive conflict that was going on before SC1, while the Ur-Quan were enslaving their neighbors, until the Ur-Quan decided to target them directly. Why would this be different?
.....
Look, at this point, we're just debating semantics. I don't think there's much left to contribute here anymore.
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Draxas
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Until you realize that the Kohr-Ah aren't taking casualties from the Kzer-Za either. I'd say that bodes ill for the Utwig & Supox, personally.
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jaychant
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OK, let's rethink the scenario. This time, I'll assume the Kohr-Ah don't detect the ZFP.
First, the Bervixese are exterminated swiftly.
Next, the Kohr-Ah move on to cleanse the Utwig. Since the Kzer-Za don't arrive, the Utwig and Supox are exterminated, leaving behind the precursor bomb. However, the Kohr-Ah sustain great casualties.
The Kohr-Ah move next into Druuge space, swiftly exterminating the species.
The Mycon are next. Having no contact with anyone, the Mycon are unable to protect themselves and are swiftly exterminated along with the Syreen. The Yehat and VUX notice that something strange is happening on radar in that region of space, so they send exploration vessels. Also, the Yehat, fearing invasion, immediately prepare for war. ZEX proposes this too, but the VUX species sees no reason for it.
When the Kohr-Ah strike down the scout vessels and their signals are lost, the VUX immediately blame the Yehat for their ship's destruction. The Yehat, however, do not believe that a lone VUX scout could ever defeat a Yehat warrior, and instead assume there is a greater threat of some kind. They immediately turn their focus entirely to preparing for war, stopping many activities.
The Kohr-Ah arrive at the Yehat homeworld, and a battle ensues. The Yehat notice that they are losing after only a few hours, and send out a distress signal.
The distress signal first reaches the VUX, who refuse to help. However, they start preparing for war so that they do not suffer the same fate as the Yehat.
The next race the signal reaches is the Androsynth. Having advanced technology, they are able to translate and read the message. They immediately prepare for war to defend against the impending threat.
Next the signal reaches the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm. They immediately prepare for war and send some ships to help the Yehat.
By the time the races are ready for war and the Chenjesu ships arrive, the Yehat have already been exterminated. The Kohr-Ah move into Shofixti space, which the Chenjesu ships help to guard. But their efforts are in vain, and the Kohr-Ah succeed. However, the Shofixti use the same tactic as last time, detonating the bomb device in their star, causing massive damage to the Kohr-Ah army.
Next, the Kohr-Ah move into VUX space. By this time the Androsynth are finished preparing for war, and in the interest of their own protection, they rush over to where the Kohr-Ah seem to be headed. They manage to make it in time to lend a hand in defending the VUX from the Kohr-Ah, but once again their efforts are in vain. The VUX are exterminated. However, due to the combined might of ZEX's tactics and the Androsynth assistance, significant damage is dealt to the Kohr-Ah army. At this point the Kohr-Ah army is as much as 40% less than when they first entered this region of space.
The Kohr-Ah move next to the Androsynth homeworld. By this time, the Chenjesu has managed to form an alliance with the Humans. The combined Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm and Human forces move toward the general direction of Androsynth space (they of course don't really know where they are) and just barely manage to join in the defense of the Androsynth homeworld. This time, they manage to stall the Kohr-Ah for a significant amount of time due to the damage the Kohr-Ah fleet has recieved. The same Precursor factory is found during this stall as in the normal story, and a ship is built.
Eventually, about the same time that the Precursor factory is found, the Kohr-Ah defeat and exterminate the Androsynth. They move on next to Earth, which is defended by Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm forces. Once again the Kohr-Ah is stalled, though the stall is shorter than the previous one due to casualties from the Androsynth defense. After a few days, the first Precursor ship arrives and is fit with new weapons and other modules. It is then sent out to do combat, and it shows to be effective against Kohr-Ah ships. Many resources are immediately transported to Vela to build more ships of this type while every existing ship is used in an attempt to protect Earth. The Arilou appear and suddenly help in the defense of Earth.
When the Precursor ships arrive, almost all the Earthguard forces are eliminated and the Kohr-Ah are bombarding Earth's surface. The Precursor ships attack the Kohr-Ah ships, but it is too late. There are too many, and the Kohr-Ah finish exterminating the Humans. However, the Precursor ships still fight anyway, and manage to eliminate a large portion of fighters. The original Kohr-Ah force at this point has been reduced by almost 60%.
The final contingent of Precursor ships is sent to the Chenjesu homeworld just in time for the defense of the world. But the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm are exterminated anyway, with the Kohr-Ah once again sustaining massive casualties, adding up now to a 65% reduction since the Kohr-Ah started.
The Kohr-Ah arrive at the Spathi homeworld. The Spathi, not wanting to die, make an outstanding effort against the Kohr-Ah, and manage to do substantial damage before they are exterminated. Kohr-Ah have at this point lost 67% of their fleet.
At this time, the Kohr-Ah move in the direction that the Precursor ships came from. They find the colony at Vela and exterminate the Human, Chenjesu, and Mmrnmhrm stragglers there. They have lost around 70% of their fleet so far.
Next they exterminate the Umgah, who offer almost no resistance, and the Thraddash who are just as weak. They travel spinward (I think it's spinward; they would travel "northwest" according to the starmap) and encounter the Kzer-Za in some other region of space (probably close by). The Kohr-Ah lose badly due to massive casualties sustained, and the Kzer-Za doctrine remains dominant.
The reason I figure the Kohr-Ah would sustain so many casualties is because the species simply don't want to die, so they will fight to the death. In the war with the Kzer-Za, many races submitted to the Kzer-Za, making it much easier for them. The obvious example is the Spathi.
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Draxas
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Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha!
There are so many things wrong with that scenario, I'm not even going to acknowledge it as even a remote possibility.
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