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Author Topic: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!  (Read 28156 times)
SilencerNate
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 08:14:30 pm »

You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 08:58:28 pm »

You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.

And the Ur-Quan can't possibly be so long-lived -- the Kohr-Ah line when they first talk to The Captain when he has the neo-Dnyarri is "We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind. My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind but I cannot understand their words. This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives, for the first time in generations... We fear."

Quote from Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?.
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SilencerNate
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 09:40:28 pm »

While its true that they are clearly not immortals, and do eventually die, keep in mind the timeline. 
The Dnyarri enslavement was around 19,000 - 17,000 BC1.  Now we know (fairly certain anyway) that all of the brown Ur-Quan were no more.  Whether they were killed off by the Black/Green forced by the Dnyarri, or died off naturally is unknown. 
However, assuming that a typical life is 5,000 years, the first generation of Black/Green Ur-Quan very well could have been been told by a few Brown Ur-quan of past history.  In fact, it would be hard-pressed to imagine that they were not able to, even under the control of the Dnyarri, especially with the implications you've made that they have a form of genetic communication.
The events of SC2 is 2155.  There's a big gap of 15,000 years that would account for the "ancestors" that the Kohr-Ah speak of on first meeting the captain with a Dnyarri on board.

However, this is purely speculation and theory, and just my personal idea of the Ur-Quan.  I personally believe they have very long lives, and until canon says otherwise (and my numbers match up) its


1 http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/scwc/timeline.shtml
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Lukipela
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2009, 05:00:15 pm »

It is explained in the game that the one being controlled feels like he is sleeping. In full control, slaves have no idea what is going on.

Can you source this? It sounds familiar, but I can't find the quotes. Not doubting you, just curious.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 07:14:36 pm »

When the captain is controlled by the Dnyarri and has flown into Ur-Quan space, he explains to the Ur-Quan, what the mental compulsion felt like. He for example says that it felt like he was sleeping, and the Ur-Quan says it sounds all too familiar.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 07:21:46 pm »

That's why I didn't find it, I was looking at Ur-Quan and Melnorme dialogues. Thank you.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 01:21:09 am »

Having the Kzer-Za scientists operating more slowly and ploddingly because of mind-control would also explain the slow technological development or even technological stasis that appears to be extant in this section of the galaxy - another mystery of the Star Control universe, at least for me. After all, despite being spacefaring for thousands of years, the Ur-Quan do not have that much of a technological advantage over their own thralls, or most Alliance races such as the humans. On the other hand, it might be the case that there is a technological plateau that most spacefaring species reach, that only the Precursors have transcended.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2009, 05:56:24 pm »

It also has to do with the fact that the Chenjesu were super-technologicians (or whatever you call them) by nature. Kind of a stroke of luck. IIRC, no race before the Chenjesu had even been a challenge to the Ur-Quan. This quadrant in general - location of the Precurors' final actions (including the Mycon), all the Alliance races having been given technological help by the Chenjesu, the trans-dimensional races and the creators of the Mmrnmhrm being interested in it for some reason, etc.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 09:25:51 am »

I think the easy answer to this question is, the Ur-Quan were well liked by the Dnyarri because they were easy to use compulsion on, but were at the same time very useful. I think that the Dnyarri had to dumb down the races that they were controlling in order to make them subservient and passive, but the Ur-Quan were probably very receptive to manipulation which in turn allowed them the greater degree of freedom necessary to do science and fulfill other tasks for the Dnyarri.
(and probably why the Dnyarri annihilated the other races that they viewed as non-productive for their own ends).
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 11:17:03 am »

It also has to do with the fact that the Chenjesu were super-technologicians (or whatever you call them) by nature. Kind of a stroke of luck. IIRC, no race before the Chenjesu had even been a challenge to the Ur-Quan. This quadrant in general - location of the Precurors' final actions (including the Mycon), all the Alliance races having been given technological help by the Chenjesu, the trans-dimensional races and the creators of the Mmrnmhrm being interested in it for some reason, etc.

I don't recall it being mentioned that the Chenjesu were the Ur-Quan's only real challenge; in fact, I think there is some dialog stating that the Ur-Quan had dealt with many rebellions before by similar alliances as the one that formed in our sector, and that in the end the Ur-Quan always emerged victorious, even if it did sometimes take a long time for the inevitable victory to occur. Extrapolating from that, the only reason why they decided to speed things along with the Sa-Matra is because they had heard the hunting call of the Kohr-Ah, and knew that the resumption of the Doctrinal Conflict was drawing near and they could not afford to be distracted by a rebellious alliance. Note that they only used the Sa-Matra once, and once the Alliance of Free Stars was pacified, they withdrew without subjugating any of the neutral races to prepare for the Doctrinal Conflict.

However, it is a strange coincidence that there was so much late Precursor activity and other ancient history in our sector... Unless, perhaps, every sector was like that before it was enslaved or exterminated.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 04:17:46 pm »

You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.

And the Ur-Quan can't possibly be so long-lived -- the Kohr-Ah line when they first talk to The Captain when he has the neo-Dnyarri is "We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind. My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind but I cannot understand their words. This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives, for the first time in generations... We fear."

Quote from Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?.

Thanks for that I had a feeling that someone had mentioned something that related to genetic memory but couldn't remember who it was.

If The Quans (black and green) have genetic memory of the Dynarri then it explains everything. They could remember being enslaved in the few moments in which they were free, even generations later which would sort of lead to their extreme response which allowed them to truly defeat the Dynarri.

It also if you think about it supports all the theories about why the Ur-Quans' philosophies (or Doctrines) came about. To someone with genetic memory they KNOW the fear the suffering and the agony of generations and generations of being enslaved and being forced to destroy all they had once cared about. How can you not feel pity for them. With our 'normal' memories we only have our own experiences to bother us, imagine if we had all the memories of our ancestors, all the wars the pain and the suffering of each and every of our predecessors, wouldn't that cause us to become insane? 

The Kohr-Ah's doctrine to 'cleanse' the galaxy of anything not Kohr-Ah is a sign of an unreasoning mind. The Kohr-Ah are literally insane from the experience of being enslaved and as such fight blindly to try and prevent it happening gain, to prevent themselves from being controlled again. While most of the races that the Kohr-Ah wish to wipe out cannot control them the Kohr-Ah cannot afford to make any kind of emotional attachments which would cause them pain if they were controlled again. (okay ill try and explain that a bit better)

*explanation* Losing friends because  you are forced to exterminate them  has got to be extremely painful. In the Ur-Quans case they were part of the Mileu and explored the galaxy with their other ally races. This leads me to believe that there were emotional links between the Ur-Quans and the members of the other races. (I remember that the Ur-Quans felt guilty for exterminating the races of the Mileu I cant remember where it was said so if anyone wants to dig that up I'd appreciate it). The Ur-Quans being forced to exterminate their friends by the Dynarri would be one of the worst kinds of pain imaginable. If the Ur-Quans have genetic memory that pain is eternal for them.

The Kzer-Za on the other hand are not insane with the memory but still fear the same result and as such anyone who threatens them, who doesn't submit to their rule is slave shielded. Not only does this prevent the Kzer-Za from being controlled it also means they don't have to suffer the guilt of genocide again.

I know that I REALLY pity the Ur-Quans'. While their actions are less than pure they have suffered horribly and if they can be reasoned with (and it wouldn't be easy, especially with the Kohr-Ah) I imagine that they could quite easily go back to their old exploration ways.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2009, 12:32:08 am »

The Taalo were the only race that the Ur-Quan ever truly called "friend".  They were the only species where an Ur-Quan could be close to without the hunter inside them screaming "Kill the Interloper, rip out it's life."
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 07:48:10 pm »

Interesting question, SuddenDeath. Wink

Ignorant (or, if you prefer, "total newbie") as I am to the game, there are certainly various aspects I am just plain minssing regarding the species, the context, the methods and all kind of stuff many others may already know.


Still, my 2 cents on the subject:

You said:
And so it goes on for generations, until freedom itself is forgotten. All that exists in the lives of the slaves is the Dnyarri. They are a fact of life to the slaves, and the slaves' hatred is long gone. Only mindless obedience remains.
You are assuming you want freedom because you learned its value. To put it in another way, great as Plato's alegory may be, it is just one alegory for ONE concept/reasoning/thought: That who is used to see only shadows, will not recognize the object of which the shadow is cast.
You can however have other thoughts. E.g. being enslaved is contrary to your nature - give your nature the chance to break that chain and it will break, or, in this case, tell your mind you can be free and your mind will free itself.
Someone already gave you a good natural trait of the Ur-Quan to enforce what I've just said: their territorialism.

This is fiction: as long as it's coherent with itself, it's, well, coherent... Grin
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 12:45:48 am »

I think the question that has to be asked is how the Ur-Quan mentally experienced their times of slavery.

If, for the Ur-Quan, being controlled feels just like being 'asleep', I don't think it would seem all that terrible.  There'd be a sickening sense of lost time, certainly, but if you are unable to comprehend your actions then I don't see how that would foster incredible hatred either, and would require either genetic memory (which I see little evidence of) or the conventional passing on of information.

But maybe that description is too imprecise.  Imagine, if you will, that you remained conscious of your actions and were still able to think (at least to some extent) about your actions... but were unable to control any of your actual physical faculties (speech, movement, anything else).  In this case, the control would feel like a living hell, your own body completely beyond your control.

I never really thought that the Dnyarri were all that great at 'reading minds' - they can CONTROL people/creatures, but they don't seem all that adept (or interested) in their private thoughts.  That would mean that feelings of hatred could fester amongst the Ur-Quan their entire lives, it's just that they cannot do anything about it.  Should they try during a moment of Dnyarri laxity, the Dnyarri would simply reassert control over the victim to stop them.

If you look at it that way, it all makes sense:
- Virtually all Ur-Quan would hate their masters, even if born under their control.  This is strengthened during times when the Ur-Quan are free to communicate with each other, but wouldn't be required.
- The Dnyarri wouldn't care about the thoughts of hatred in their slaves since they can just prevent any attack before it becomes a problem (and possibly because they do not or cannot read thoughts in the first place)
- The Dnyarri don't constantly mind-read (either can't or don't care) and so they don't catch out Kzer-Za's discovery, even IF it was made while under their control.
- Kzer-Za's discovery allows him to do the unexpected: prevent a Dnyarri from stopping him from doing something.  At a moment where control is lax, he enacts his fatal plan.  This allows him to disseminate information to all other Ur-Quan (somehow).
- The other Ur-Quan can receive this message (though not necessarily do anything about it) even if they are under Dnyarri control.  Those few that are not currently being controlled take action immediately, possibly freeing more Ur-Quan from control in so doing (either killing Dnyarri or hurting other Ur-Quan).  The effect rapidly snowballs.
- The Dnyarri are defeated

That model makes sense to me, but the fact that the game makes it sound like control feels like being 'asleep' sort of spoils the whole theory...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 12:48:09 am by Soul Reaver » Logged

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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 05:11:13 am »

I get the feeling that Dnyarri mind control works both ways, depending on how the controller itself feels like handling it. So in cases where the Dnyarri is uninterested in their subject or doesn't feel like paying much attention to them, they implant a powerful suggestion <Seek death at the hands of your enemy!> and just let them get on with whatever that task entails, which probably results in a sleep-like state and lost time. However, in cases where they take a personal interest in their subject (and the Ur-Quan, as their favored slaves, would certainly fit the bill, and this also seems to happen to the Umgah), then the control may instead result in lengthy stretches of being trapped in your own mind, unable to control your body. Hence the dichotomy between what the Captain experiences, and what the Ur-Quan experienced.

Of course, this could also be a result of the Ur-Quan's known sensitivity to the Dnyarri's powers; they are able to remain conscious throughout the duration, while less sensitive races perceive it as if they were asleep the entire time. If that's the case, how would the Ur-Quan know about other races being in a sleep-like state? They found out that their experience was unique through communication with the other enslaved Milleu races.
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