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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2009, 01:08:22 am »

As a little brain teaser, has anyone thought what would have happened if Kohr-Ah had arrived before Kzer-za?

I mean, as  Kohr-Ah don't use other slaves, united Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm fleet would have had the change to make a defense. The sizes between Kohr-Ah and Kzer-za could have not been that much off (well, before the little bastards of Shofixti anyway) and as Kohr-Ah never retreat (Not canon as far as I know, but c'mon, huge cleansing force of the galaxy) to just recruit some local races to fight for them.

The conflict, if as bloody as Crucible of Sentience, would still mobilize the local sector, thus making them even more prepared for the future arrival of Kzer-za.

A little mind pondering mystery if you as me  Grin.



But I agree with analogy about the Dnyarri mind control. A species as Dnyarri (by the example from that little bastard who made Umgah not funny :/) it would seem that even thought super intelligent, their thoughts are usually cloudet by strong emotions and as such, it would be likely to hinder their mind control abilities.

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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2009, 10:56:09 am »

An interesting situation indeed. Whilst the Kohr-Ah pick each sector clean of resources, they can never leave a war against a race with more numbers than they went in with, and will probably have at least a few less, even against the Umgah or Thraddash. Added to that they'd have started with the Druuge, Utwig, Supox, Burvixese and Gg rather than the relatively weak races, and once they encountered the ZFP the Chenjesu would likely hear about it, then the Mbots would hear about it, then they'd alert the Earthlings and the Yehat, the Yehat would bring the Shofixti, then the Arilou would turn up and they'd try to get the Umgah on-side, and so on... what you'd end up with is the Kohr-Ah vs everyone, rather than the Kohr-Ah vs the Kzer-Za. Since the first really serious races they'd come to are the Druuge and the Utwig, I don't fancy their chances.

And THEN maybe the Kzer-Za would turn up while everyone else was trying to resist cleansing - what would they do? On the one hand, 'everyone is dying must help'. On the other hand, 'they're killing Ur-Quan must stop'. And if they get a sudden attack of the stupid, 'who cares about what's going on over there other races must enslave'.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2009, 11:40:56 am »

I think Kzer-Za would just retreat and wait for things to end one way or the other . And then deal with (and win) whoever is left . They are thinkers , beurocrats and know their numbers . They do not come to protect , they just need insurance of own species' safety .
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2009, 12:20:25 pm »

Indeed. If Kohr-Ah would had arrived before Kzer-za and started to blast around the starts, finally coming to towards the Alliance races, wich would mobilize and the start a war of defense. If we just simply change the dates of Ur-Quan arrivals, the Alliance would most likely defeat Kohr-Ah before Kzer-Za arrive (as they are +20 years off of each other). If not without internal events, the only option for Kzer-Za to defeat the Alliance would be the usage of Sa-Matra, as all the local races are already recruited into the Alliance.

Unless the Kohr-Ah suddenly come up with creative thinking and stay within Druuge-Traddash are of space and just enlarge their forces to a massive proportion wich then they  would use to attack the Alliance races, it looks like Alliance win-win situation.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2009, 12:40:03 pm »

I don't think the Kohr-Ah would be defeated by the old Alliance. Remember that both Ur-Quan have had to deal with many alliances before, and have always prevailed.

I think the Battle Thralls were no more than 10% or so of the Kzer-Za's power (otherwise they might be tempted to revolt and join forces with the enemy). And perhaps they didn't even give all they had in the war, letting the Thralls do most of the hard work. So according to this little theory of mine, the Kzer-Za could defeat the old Alliance without any Thralls at all. And therefore the Kohr-Ah would have no problem there at all.

I think Kzer-Za would just retreat and wait for things to end one way or the other . And then deal with (and win) whoever is left . They are thinkers , beurocrats and know their numbers . They do not come to protect , they just need insurance of own species' safety .

I'd say both subraces would stop all of their offensives against other races, and start the second Doctrinal War. Actually, that's just what happened - there are still quite a few free races in the neighborhood in SC2. The Kzer-Za just made sure to wrap things up just before the Kohr-Ah's arrival.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2009, 02:38:38 pm »

The main problem is, we don't know. We don't know the real sizes of their respective fleets, we can only theorize at best.

As Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm were able to form a defense against the Kzer-Za before they started to gather local Pôkemon's for battle. Quote from Ultronomicon "...only knowing that the Mycon's unique Podship technology greatly multiplied the sheer firepower potential of the Ur-Quan forces, making them far more offensively powerful.".

This does give the conclusion that Battle Thralls had more power. As this was to already combined power.

Also I find no reason for Kzer-Za to hold back. The only thing that we know for certain they hold back was Sa-Matra, wich they we have a good reason to hold as both religious and cultural reasons. The whole ordeal gives the conclusion that it is the final resort, no reason to hold back before it.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2009, 11:26:42 pm »

See here for many guesses on Alliance/Hierarchy/Kohr-Ah military strength. I also wrote a capital-sized post on the first page of that thread Smiley
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2009, 12:33:02 am »

Yeah, it was pretty good, except you got a little side track with the humans.

According to numerous sources within the game, the human fleet was the backbone of the Alliance, fighting on multiple fronts. Meaning either that with the greater human industries, they made a huge number of warships or that these warships had an advantage to be so god damm useful.

I would say it's the first.


However, still. These are still all just speculation, not actual fact, as such we are not one step closer to the truth, but let's still go on, I like where this conversastion is going ^^.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2009, 03:08:45 am »

For one, I think the Mycons would join the Kohr-Ah and promise to destroy all life in the galexy (including themselves), then they would attempt to revolt against the Kohr-Ah once they believed themselves to be powerful enough.

The Kohr-Ah would likely not win the war, simply because of the arrival of the Kzer-Za. They would stop attacking and turn their concentration to the doctrinal conflict. However, they would succeed in eliminating some races, namely the Druuge.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2009, 07:28:31 am »

I think something important is being overlooked here: unlike the Kzer-Za, who attempt to approach and enslave the local races and loudly declare their intent to do so toward anyone who may be listening, the Kohr-Ah strike without warning at the heart of each species, wiping them out as swiftly as possible. The endgame death march is a perfect illustration of this in action, as none of the races know they are on the verge of being destroyed, and all are exterminated nearly instantly as soon as the Kohr-Ah arrive. And this is without using the Sa-Matra at all, since it's still parked in the middle of Ur-Quan space!

I don't think the second Doctrinal Conflict would have even occurred in our sector of the galaxy if the Kohr-Ah had arrived first. Their fleets would have advanced right around the region, merrily and swiftly stamping out each race the encountered, and since most races were unknown to each other at that time, few of them would have been any wiser that a threat of this magnitude even existed. By the time the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm would have been made aware of them, it would have been too late; the Druuge, Burvixese, Utwig, Supox, ZFP, and Thraddash would have all been exterminated by then, and they would have turned to them next (I suspect the ZFP would not have had time to warn anyone before they were wiped out, assuming the Chenjesu even knew of them before the war started). Maybe they would have gotten the word out to other known races, but this would have been their dying act and would have reached only a scattered few: Presumably the Yehat, Ilwrath, and Humans, possibly the Pkunk. The Ilwrath, Pkunk, and Humanity would have been wiped out before they could even mobilize to meet the threat in any significant way, and the demise of Earth would have ensured that the Arilou would stay out of the conflict. The Yehat may have been able to form an alliance with the races they were aware of: The Shofixti, VUX, and perhaps even the Mycon and Syreen. Meanwhile, the Kohr-Ah would have little trouble eliminating the isolated and unaware Androsynth, Umgah, and Spathi (with the demise of the Androsynth ensuring that the ORZ never become aware of our dimension). The final battle would have come down to the might of the Kohr-Ah armada versus a hastily assembled local alliance headed by the Yehat. Of that alliance, only the Yehat, VUX, and Mycon (assuming they joined, rather than try to appeal to the Kohr-Ah and get exterminated for their trouble) would have had significant combat forces.

The Shofixti would likely have been the first target, and Delta Gorno the site of a massive battle. However, after the alliance is driven into retreat, the outcome would have been the same as we all remember: the Shofixti cause their sun to turn supernova with their Precursor bomb rather than passing quietly into oblivion, resulting in the loss of 1/3 of the Kohr-Ah fleet. However, the Kohr-Ah would have pressed their advantage and pursued, intercepting and eliminating the Syreen hab-fleet before moving on to VUX space. Again the alliance would have made a valiant stand, but with the loss of two member races, as well as a significant portion of their warfleet at Delta Gorno, they would have been force to fall back yet again and the VUX would be exterminated. The Kohr-Ah would continue into Yehat space, and the last stand of the Starship Clans would have an unfortunate but predictable outcome. If the Mycon remained, they would be the last to fall.

The entire process would likely not take longer than 2 - 3 years.

The Kohr-Ah, triumphant, would have moved "northward" past Thraddash space for new prey, where they would have finally encountered the Kzer-Za, still attempting to enslave the sentients inhabiting that region of space, likely resorting to brutal subjugation using the Sa-Matra once they discovered the proximity of their brethren. The second Doctrinal Conflict would begin.

On the plus side, the enormous losses suffered by the Kohr-Ah at Delta Gorno would have resulted in the Kzer-Za emerging victorious, once again claiming the Sa-Matra as their prize, and this time declaring the superiority of their doctrine and forcing the Kohr-Ah to accept it as true. The Kohr-Ah, their worldview shattered, have no choice but to accept and join the enslavers in their mission, though they subtly attempt to undermine their authority by "accidentally" exterminating races when they resist. Nonetheless, this marks the end of the Eternal Doctrine, and the Path of Now and Forever is acknowledged as the superior and correct means to ensure that the Ur-Quan are never again made into slaves.

Aren't you glad things worked out the way that they did?
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2009, 08:37:56 am »

I would say, no :/....


But what we are forgetting is the Arilou. By the locations of Quasispace portals, we can concur that Arilou will most likely know about the Kohr-Ah threat and who knows what kind of scheme will those little green men do o ensure the future of human race.

Kinda short post to counter  your argument, but still.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2009, 09:06:24 am »

The Arilou are not only dimentional travellers , but also live outside our time stream , meaning they not necessary depend on Q-space portals for knoledge . Melnorme also might sell some info on the matter . This said , I don't believe it would make any difference . I totally agree with Draxas , great post he has there .
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2009, 11:40:26 am »

Does not make a diffrence? If Arilou would warn Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm (or other close by races in that matter) during the Kohr-Ah invasion of Druuge, it would give them ample time to form a defense. We would need to subject ourselfs to believe that Kohr-Ah would most likely take the Druuge-Supox-Traddash route, as it was already part of Draxas post.

Arilou would warn both of them, they would mobilize during the few months that they have, they would call up the local races to aid them. By the time Kohr-Ah would arrive they would need to face a fleet of Broodhomes, X-Wings, Skiffs and propably Umgah vessels. If the Kohr-Ah would just simple try to overwhelm the Alliance forces, Broodhomes and X-fighters would most likely destroy them with their long range weapons and their superior tactics.

However, we have seen that Kohr-Ah have used tactics. It is aparrent by the Doctorine War between them and Kzer-Za. If they would have just simple overwhelmed them, the conflict in SC2 would be most likely much shorter, but with more devestating casualties. Thus we make the final point, if the alliance gathered in by Arilou manages to prolonge the war, who knows what tactic might Kohr-Ah use. The longer the war lasts, more races would be discovered and they would also contribute to the war.

This theory lasts on two factors. First, on the fact that Arilou can warn races before Kohr-Ah arrive as they excist out of our universe and on the fact that Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm can hold out. They withstood the Ur-Quan slave armada before humans, Yehat, Shofixti, Arilou or Syreen entered the war.


That, or Arilou would come up with something to protect the human race, THEY WILL ALWAYS COME UP WITH SOMETHING. Don't fuck with them.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2009, 06:27:20 pm »

Does not make a diffrence? If Arilou would warn Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm (or other close by races in that matter) during the Kohr-Ah invasion of Druuge, it would give them ample time to form a defense. We would need to subject ourselfs to believe that Kohr-Ah would most likely take the Druuge-Supox-Traddash route, as it was already part of Draxas post.

Arilou would warn both of them, they would mobilize during the few months that they have, they would call up the local races to aid them. By the time Kohr-Ah would arrive they would need to face a fleet of Broodhomes, X-Wings, Skiffs and propably Umgah vessels. If the Kohr-Ah would just simple try to overwhelm the Alliance forces, Broodhomes and X-fighters would most likely destroy them with their long range weapons and their superior tactics.

There is a massive flaw in this assumption: The Arilou care nothing for any species other than Humanity. They would have no inclination to warn anyone else of the impending threat; they certainly didn't feel the need to do so when the Kzer-Za arrived, and only got involved with the Alliance of Free Stars once Earth became a member world. Before that, they were content to act in secret. There is no reason to assume they would behave differently in the face of the Kohr-Ah threat until it was a certainty that Humanity would be wiped out. Even then, their measures would probably consist of spiriting away a segment of Earth's population so that they could continue their work, not acting toward the altruistic (and futile) benefit of other races.

Quote
However, we have seen that Kohr-Ah have used tactics. It is aparrent by the Doctorine War between them and Kzer-Za. If they would have just simple overwhelmed them, the conflict in SC2 would be most likely much shorter, but with more devestating casualties. Thus we make the final point, if the alliance gathered in by Arilou manages to prolonge the war, who knows what tactic might Kohr-Ah use. The longer the war lasts, more races would be discovered and they would also contribute to the war.

I would expect their tactics when dealing with lesser races would be similar to the Kzer-Za's, but much more direct: Start with the least able to resist, head to their homeworld and attack without warning. Once the root of the species is eliminated, the stragglers can be picked off with ease. Once this task is done, move to the next closest race and repeat. However, I don't think the Kohr-Ah would divert their plans in the face of resistance like the Kzer-Za did against the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm. Unlike the Kzer-Za, they are not going to enslave other, weaker races to bolster their ranks; it is much more prudent for them to simply plow through the resistance and eliminate a stronger threat, than to allow them to survive somewhat longer and potentially cause greater troubles down the road.

I don't think Kohr-Ah tactics used in the Doctrinal Conflict are valid toward this discussion. Combat between the two Ur-Quan subraces is much more formalized and ritualized than the tactics each would use on a lesser race. The Kohr-Ah do not want to exterminate their brethren, merely to prove that their beliefs are superior through battle.

Quote
This theory lasts on two factors. First, on the fact that Arilou can warn races before Kohr-Ah arrive as they excist out of our universe and on the fact that Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm can hold out. They withstood the Ur-Quan slave armada before humans, Yehat, Shofixti, Arilou or Syreen entered the war.

As discussed above, neither suumption is valid. To recap: the Arilou only desire to preserve Humanity, and would not warn anyone else of the encroaching Kohr-Ah fleets. And the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm would not be able to turn the Kohr-Ah away like they did to the Kzer-Za: the Kzer-Za only retreated so that they could enslave other, more isolated races and convert them into battle thralls in order to bolster their strength for the coming conflict. The Kohr-Ah would use no such tactics, since they would not enslave other races.

Quote
That, or Arilou would come up with something to protect the human race, THEY WILL ALWAYS COME UP WITH SOMETHING. Don't fuck with them.

You're probably right. However, this solution is not likely to be quite so favorable toward the rest of the sentients in our region of the galaxy. The Arilou will keep enough of Humanity alive so that their work will not be in vain, but would probably not be at all averse to sacrificing any other race in the effort, and possibly even sacrificing much of our race as well.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2009, 06:56:12 pm »

I wonder how much scouting the Arilou actually do. They didn't try to deal with the Kohr-Ah or the Ur-Quan before the last moment.
But... as for the Ur-Quan, they were no existential threat to a peaceful race of humans. It was only after the humans decided to fight that the possibility was raised. And the Kohr-Ah? Well, they were decades away.
And with the second war, I'd say the Arilou kind of knew how it was going to work out. They would need to put out a lot more effort without the Kzer-Za there to provide a buffer and shield.

The question arises, how could the Arilou actually get everyone in gear in time? I'd say, bring special observers to observe the Kohr-Ah. Perhaps in action wiping out a civilization, if needed.

Then you'd have an up to 20 species combined force, more if the Burvix were capable of resistance or the Melnorme could be induced to join. Combined arms could do something serious to the Kohr-Ah, I think. Would they have ever faced a united force of this magnitude, with such quality scouting? I believe the Arilou are unique in the galaxy, and this would pretty much fall on them to make the difference.

As Draxas said, the Arilou don't care about any other race; but for purposes of this debate, supposing that it will take anything less than everyone on deck to take down the Kohr-Ah answers the question just as well.
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