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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2009, 08:58:58 pm »

This thread is too long for me to read in detail, but it is interesting to skim, so I apologize if what I'm going to say is not exactly relevant or have been suggested before.

I don't think the Arilou can go back in time, but I do think they are the most advance race around (beside the Orz, no one knows shit about the Orz).
Assuming their claims of guiding humanity from its beginning are correct, and assuming this means really beginning, the Arilou were messing with Humans AT LEAST 30,000 years ago. The minimum is 10,000 years before the Ur-quan begun their doctrine. And the maximum is millions of years past (which makes them older then the Precursors!).

I said all that because I think that if the Arilou REALLY wanted to, they could either wipe the Kohr-ah themselves or give the Alliance sufficient tech to do it.

But what I see more plausible is that they'll run off with humanity. As people here suggested. Perhaps something as extreme as kidnapping Earth itself, or the majority of the population.
I know it didn't happen in the game if the Death March occur, but no one tells us if the Arilou didn't take away most of the humans as the bombs were heading down, without the Korh-ah every finding out about it.

I know I give the Arilou A LOT of credits, but that's my opinion on the green bastards. Oh, and I don't trust them.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2009, 10:13:49 pm »

Assuming their claims of guiding humanity from its beginning are correct, and assuming this means really beginning, the Arilou were messing with Humans AT LEAST 30,000 years ago. The minimum is 10,000 years before the Ur-quan begun their doctrine. And the maximum is millions of years past (which makes them older then the Precursors!).

Timeline:

Homo~ 2,500,000 BC  - I don't think they were talking about these guys...
Homo sapiens~ 200,000 BC
Civilization~ 10,000 BC   - Perhaps they were referring to this?
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2009, 11:16:07 pm »

Draxas - My imression of Arilou being time travellers comes from Ors' reference to them " they are always *jumping in front* "
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2009, 12:04:25 am »

I always interpreted that as dimension hopping rather than time travelling. It seems to be a remark about the Arilou trying to stop the Orz from making inroads into various other dimensions (AKA Truespace). One would assume that this means the Arilou have some means of physically stopping the Orz from crossing dimensions (which was unsuccessful with regard to the Androsynth for whatever reason), or that they have modified other races that the Orz were or would have been inerested in *replacing* in other dimensions.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2009, 04:13:15 pm »

I maintain that there is no feasible scenario that ends in victory for the alliance. In fact, I don't think it's too farfetched to think that there is no feasible scenario that ends in a stalemate long enough that the Kohr-Ah would be distracted by the coming of the Kzer-Za. 20 years is a long time to try to resist an impacable enemy with superior numbers and technology with no goal other than to exterminate anything with sentience.

Why? The Kzer-za seem to be equally balanced to them in principle, with the balance being tipped by the Shofixti sacrifice... and even with the help of their thralls they took a good long time and eventually just got frustrated enough that they resorted to the Sa-Matra, which the Kohr-Ah don't have.
One way around this is that the Kohr-Ah are more casualty-tolerant than the Kzer-za, and would push themselves far harder. In that case, a likely scenario would be that the alliance grinds them down, with heavy losses, until the Kohr-Ah realize that to have a chance of beating the Kzer-za they'll have to retreat and regroup.
What happens then is not clear.

~~~~

One strong note in favor of, if not time travel, at least highly specific prediction, is that the Arilou know, potentially years before you ever go to Betelgeuse or Mycon space, that you're going to hook up with Talana.

As for the death march, It's feasible that that's just a game mechanic. That is, the Arilou let things get to that point because they knew that in the canonical timeline, you'd win.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2009, 05:43:45 pm »

Why? The Kzer-za seem to be equally balanced to them in principle, with the balance being tipped by the Shofixti sacrifice... and even with the help of their thralls they took a good long time and eventually just got frustrated enough that they resorted to the Sa-Matra, which the Kohr-Ah don't have.

My personal interpretation of this is that the Kzer-Za take their time and don't strike directly at the heart of their target immediately. Instead, they grind them down, methodically destroying their forces and offering every opportunity for them to submit, so that when the time comes that the Dreadnought fleet appears in orbit around their homeworld, the people below know that they are beyond hope, and know exactly who their masters are. This can take significantly longer than the Kohr-Ah, simply because it's as much a psychological war as a military one, whereas the Kohr-Ah (if the Death March is any indication) simply make a surgical strike and obliterate their target's homeworld, and then clean up the disorganized and demoralized remnants in short order immediately afterward.

I maintain that the the only reason the Kzer-Za even used the Sa-Matra at all was because they heard the hunting call of the approaching Kohr-Ah fleet. They knew that they were running out of time to prepare, and could no longer afford to fight their usual war of attrition against the Alliance. So they wrapped things up as quickly as possible through a single surgical application of the Sa-Matra (which I'm sure they were disgusted they had to use at all; this is the item that called the genuine superiority of their doctrine into question in the first place). If the Kzer-Za really just wanted to crush all resistance as swiftly as possible, they surely would have used the Sa-Matra far more frequently.

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One way around this is that the Kohr-Ah are more casualty-tolerant than the Kzer-za, and would push themselves far harder. In that case, a likely scenario would be that the alliance grinds them down, with heavy losses, until the Kohr-Ah realize that to have a chance of beating the Kzer-za they'll have to retreat and regroup.
What happens then is not clear.

The Kohr-Ah do not seem to employ the same tactics as the Kzer-Za. Let's try an analogy: The Kzer-Za are a huge army, advancing on the gates of each city. They employ no subtlety, and simply advance against their enemy, stopping for a brief parley before each encounter to demand the enemy surrender, and when rejected, they simply steamroll right over them. When they reach the gates, and march inside after crushing all of the defenders, they enslave the survivors as either fighters to bolster their forces, or workers to reinforce their supply lines, all in preparation for marching on the next city.

The Kohr-Ah, in contrast, are a force of highly skilled assassins. They sneak into the city under cover of darkness, attempting to draw as little attention as possible (though they have no trouble swiftly dealing with anyone who discovers them). They make their way to the heart of the city, drop off a massive bomb capable of killing every resident, and leave. The ensuing detonation wipes out every vestige of the city and its inhabitants, save for some empty ruins. The assassins then sweep back in, rapidly finishing off anyone who remains, before moving on to the next city.

It's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea (I hope).

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One strong note in favor of, if not time travel, at least highly specific prediction, is that the Arilou know, potentially years before you ever go to Betelgeuse or Mycon space, that you're going to hook up with Talana.

Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

Quote
As for the death march, It's feasible that that's just a game mechanic. That is, the Arilou let things get to that point because they knew that in the canonical timeline, you'd win.

First of all, the lack of an actual SC3 means that we really don't know how the canonical timeline plays out. While it's safe to assume that the Kohr-Ah are not successful in wiping everyone out, what is unclear is how far they get (or even if they win the Doctrinal Conflict) before the Sa-Matra is destroyed and the Chmmr fleets sweep in.

How do the Arilou respond to the Death March once it begins? I don't remember if their dialog changes or not, nor am I sure if they disappear from Quasispace after the Kohr-Ah wipe out their SOI. If they do, maybe they're not quite as good at this prediction thing as they would like us to believe.

Yeah, it might just be a game mechanic, and canon probably dictates that the Death March never happens. But it is a useful thing to analyze, at least as a potential outcome of the game.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2009, 09:12:04 pm »

The Kohr-Ah do not seem to employ the same tactics as the Kzer-Za. Let's try an analogy: The Kzer-Za are a huge army, advancing on the gates of each city. They employ no subtlety, and simply advance against their enemy, stopping for a brief parley before each encounter to demand the enemy surrender, and when rejected, they simply steamroll right over them. When they reach the gates, and march inside after crushing all of the defenders, they enslave the survivors as either fighters to bolster their forces, or workers to reinforce their supply lines, all in preparation for marching on the next city.

The Kohr-Ah, in contrast, are a force of highly skilled assassins. They sneak into the city under cover of darkness, attempting to draw as little attention as possible (though they have no trouble swiftly dealing with anyone who discovers them). They make their way to the heart of the city, drop off a massive bomb capable of killing every resident, and leave. The ensuing detonation wipes out every vestige of the city and its inhabitants, save for some empty ruins. The assassins then sweep back in, rapidly finishing off anyone who remains, before moving on to the next city.

It's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea (I hope).

I agree, but keep this in mind: Other races would be able to detect the elimination of other species. Remember that when the Gg were being exterminated, they warned the Burvixese, who in turn warned the Druuge, so the Druuge were able to do something about it. Once the Kohr-Ah attacked the Umgah, the rest of known races would learn of the Kohr-Ah and prepare for battle, and they would gather to protect their homeworlds. Almost every member of each species would involve themselves in the war, so it would truly be a fight to the death, meaning that after the Umgah were exterminated, the Kohr-Ah would have a harder time fighting the races than the Ur-Quan. The Arilou would also come in to defend the humans, making it even harder for the Kohr-Ah. Worst cast scenario is that the first few races would be eliminated. They would not likely succeed in killing the Spathi, Androsynth, Humans, VUX, Yehat, Mycon, Zoq-Fot-Pik, or Syreen.

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Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

They mention the Mycon Deep Children and claim that "the fate of the universe and your heart" are related to them.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2009, 09:32:45 pm »

I agree, but keep this in mind: Other races would be able to detect the elimination of other species. Remember that when the Gg were being exterminated, they warned the Burvixese, who in turn warned the Druuge, so the Druuge were able to do something about it. Once the Kohr-Ah attacked the Umgah, the rest of known races would learn of the Kohr-Ah and prepare for battle, and they would gather to protect their homeworlds. Almost every member of each species would involve themselves in the war, so it would truly be a fight to the death, meaning that after the Umgah were exterminated, the Kohr-Ah would have a harder time fighting the races than the Ur-Quan. The Arilou would also come in to defend the humans, making it even harder for the Kohr-Ah. Worst cast scenario is that the first few races would be eliminated. They would not likely succeed in killing the Spathi, Androsynth, Humans, VUX, Yehat, Mycon, Zoq-Fot-Pik, or Syreen.

I disagree with that assessment for one important reason: most of the races were rather insular until the Ur-Quan showed up, and maybe knew one or two of their neighbors (if they knew any of them at all). Only the Chenjesu seemed to know of anyone farther away, which is why they were the original organizers of the Alliance. So really, the destruction of the Umgah would not trigger too many alarm bells, since only the Spathi and Arilou knew of them, and neither would be likely to tell anyone else. Depending on the direction the Kohr-Ah took afterward, they would strike either at the Ilwrath (which would alert the Chenjesu and start the ball rolling, though that would make the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm the next to fall) or Spathi (which nobody would really notice, since only the Umgah seemed to have relations with them; the next target from there could be Syreen, then Mycon, then VUX or Yehat, making this scenario a complete disaster since nobody would have any advance warning until almost half the races were wiped out). This pretty much hearkens back to the original scenario I laid out, before all this talk about time travel and the Arilou uniting the galaxy (which I still think is terribly out of character).

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Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

They mention the Mycon Deep Children and claim that "the fate of the universe and your heart" are related to them.

Huh, neat. I never saw that one, despite all the time I spent chatting up the Arilou in some of my games (arriving at the QS portal on the 1st is a pisser). I wonder, though, if the message is dependent on whether you've been to see Talana yet or not; if so, then it's more likely they've been observing your progress and noticed your eyeballs fall out of your head when you first met her. Wink
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2009, 10:21:11 pm »

Huh, neat. I never saw that one, despite all the time I spent chatting up the Arilou in some of my games (arriving at the QS portal on the 1st is a pisser). I wonder, though, if the message is dependent on whether you've been to see Talana yet or not; if so, then it's more likely they've been observing your progress and noticed your eyeballs fall out of your head when you first met her. Wink

No, it has nothing to do with meeting anybody. It's one of those random pieces of information they give you when you talk to them in space.

I disagree with that assessment for one important reason: most of the races were rather insular until the Ur-Quan showed up, and maybe knew one or two of their neighbors (if they knew any of them at all). Only the Chenjesu seemed to know of anyone farther away, which is why they were the original organizers of the Alliance. So really, the destruction of the Umgah would not trigger too many alarm bells, since only the Spathi and Arilou knew of them, and neither would be likely to tell anyone else. Depending on the direction the Kohr-Ah took afterward, they would strike either at the Ilwrath (which would alert the Chenjesu and start the ball rolling, though that would make the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm the next to fall) or Spathi (which nobody would really notice, since only the Umgah seemed to have relations with them; the next target from there could be Syreen, then Mycon, then VUX or Yehat, making this scenario a complete disaster since nobody would have any advance warning until almost half the races were wiped out). This pretty much hearkens back to the original scenario I laid out, before all this talk about time travel and the Arilou uniting the galaxy (which I still think is terribly out of character).

The Chenjesu were able to detect the Ur-Quan taking over the Umgah. In turn, the Chenjesu would no doubt warn the Pkunk, Spathi, and Androsynth. In turn, the Pkunk would warn the Yehat, who would warn the Shofixti and maybe even the VUX. The Mycon and Syreen would likely not be informed, since they were unknown at the time, but the Mycon were already prepared for war. If the Chenjesu didn't warn the humans (which they probably would), then the Arilou would.

So the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Ilwrath, and Umgah would still be wiped out, but the Kohr-Ah would have a hard time fighting everyone else, because they would be ready.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2009, 11:57:06 pm »

Some bits of info that might help:
1)When the Kzer-za entered our area of space (presumably even before conquering the Thraddash) they broadcasted a battlecry across hyperspace. The Chenjesu picked it up (being naturally able to recive hyperspace communications) and begun preparing the alliace.

I don't know however (as in I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere) if the Kohr-ah did the same. This could matter a lot in this discussion.

2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

3) I don't think the Mycon were ready to war at the time. They sneaked their deep child to the Syreen HW, they weren't going for a head-on war.
It was mentioned in SC2 that since the Hierarchy's victory and after the Kzer-za left the thralls for their own devices, the VUX and Mycon both worked hard expending their sphere of influence.
So I assume that at the time of SC1 their forces were smaller then in SC2.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2009, 12:15:28 am »

Some bits of info that might help:
1)When the Kzer-za entered our area of space (presumably even before conquering the Thraddash) they broadcasted a battlecry across hyperspace. The Chenjesu picked it up (being naturally able to recive hyperspace communications) and begun preparing the alliace.

I don't know however (as in I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere) if the Kohr-ah did the same. This could matter a lot in this discussion.

2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

3) I don't think the Mycon were ready to war at the time. They sneaked their deep child to the Syreen HW, they weren't going for a head-on war.
It was mentioned in SC2 that since the Hierarchy's victory and after the Kzer-za left the thralls for their own devices, the VUX and Mycon both worked hard expending their sphere of influence.
So I assume that at the time of SC1 their forces were smaller then in SC2.

The Chenjesu had no idea what the broadcast was. The first noticeable sign was the rapid subjugation of the Umgah and the Chenjesu didn't prepare for war until about the time the Ilwrath were conquered. They were actually barely able to turn aside the Ur-Quan fleet with their hastily assembled defense fleet. So there is practically no way the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm could survive the Kohr-Ah (since the Kohr-Ah would keep fighting).
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2009, 05:46:33 am »

The Chenjesu were able to detect the Ur-Quan taking over the Umgah. In turn, the Chenjesu would no doubt warn the Pkunk, Spathi, and Androsynth. In turn, the Pkunk would warn the Yehat, who would warn the Shofixti and maybe even the VUX. The Mycon and Syreen would likely not be informed, since they were unknown at the time, but the Mycon were already prepared for war. If the Chenjesu didn't warn the humans (which they probably would), then the Arilou would.

So the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Ilwrath, and Umgah would still be wiped out, but the Kohr-Ah would have a hard time fighting everyone else, because they would be ready.

Many false assumptions here. First, nobody really took much notice of the Umgah being conquered, the Chenjesu only perked up when the Ilwrath came under attack if I recall correctly. Second, the Chenjesu would not contact any of the races you mentioned, or presumably the first Alliance would have looked significantly different. The Chenjesu would have warned the Yehat, and presumably Earth as well, since that's exactly what they did when being assaulted by the Kzer-Za. The Pkunk were unknown at the time to anyone save the Yehat, who refused to acknowledge their existence. The Spathi were isolated from everyone except the Umgah, who I'm sure they wouldn't miss if they were cleansed. The Androsynth were completely isolated and unknown to all, and only became players in SC1 when they were discovered and conquered by the Kzer-Za.

The Yehat would ready the Shofixti for sure, and perhaps convince the VUX, but didn't know anyone else at the time. Humans were new to the interstellar scene, and had no contacts, though the Arilou would presumably step in to try to defend them as the did in SC1. As you say, the Mycon and Syreen were unknown to all, and as an isolated force, the Mycon are not much of a threat no matter how prepared they were. So we're talking about the old Alliance, minus Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, and Syreen, and possibly plus VUX. Those are long odds for stopping the Death March, and realistically, they have no chance.

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2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

The Mmrnhrm had only a single contact with the Spathi, which was brief and cordial, and considering the Spathi attitude in these matters, even if they had been approached (which they weren't in SC1), they probably would have hid instead of joining the alliance. A lethal mistake, but definitely one that is in character.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2009, 12:10:35 pm »

First, nobody really took much notice of the Umgah being conquered, the Chenjesu only perked up when the Ilwrath came under attack if I recall correctly.

You are exactly right. Like I said, the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm would not be able to survive. But they would be able to warn the Humans and Yehat, so other races can prepare.

Second, the Chenjesu would not contact any of the races you mentioned, or presumably the first Alliance would have looked significantly different. The Chenjesu would have warned the Yehat, and presumably Earth as well, since that's exactly what they did when being assaulted by the Kzer-Za. The Pkunk were unknown at the time to anyone save the Yehat, who refused to acknowledge their existence. The Spathi were isolated from everyone except the Umgah, who I'm sure they wouldn't miss if they were cleansed. The Androsynth were completely isolated and unknown to all, and only became players in SC1 when they were discovered and conquered by the Kzer-Za.

OK, then the Chenjesu would warn Human and Yehat, Arilou would step in to defend Humans, and Yehat would warn Shofixti and possibly VUX. Humans would probably warn the Androsynth and maybe even form an alliance. The Yehat might also ally with Earth. I personally don't think an alliance would be created between the Yehat and VUX or between the Humans and VUX, but the Kohr-Ah would be forced to fight a true war and would therefore have less of a chance of succeeding anyways. Also, the help of Admiral ZEX would make it even harder for the Kohr-Ah to win.
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2009, 03:13:55 pm »

The Humans won't warn anyone.
They don't know were any alien race is, including the Androsynth.
And their best weaponery is the old nukes from the peace vaults...
In other words it is up to the Arilou to save our asses.

Without the Humans though, it is more likely that the VUX will ally themselves with the Yehat.
But a Yehat-Shofixti-VUX alliance isn't something impressive enough to stop the Kohr-ah.

The Androsynth too, BTW, are unkown to anyone. As they are a new race in their area and are busy building their civillization from zero.

Unless the Chenjesu and Mrn will be able to hold the Kohr-ah relentless attacks long enough to orgenize an Alliance like they did with the Kzer-za (which they might be able to do... maybe...) then the only survivors will be the Arilou and the Humans they rescued.
And maybe the Mycon, if they can hide under the crust of a planet (if a deep child can develop into a Mycon colony and is not just a device).


Hmm... this is a bit off topic, but I bet it would be really annoying to cleanse the Pkunk...  Grin
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Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2009, 04:03:51 pm »

I don't know why you are supposing they'd come from the same direction as the Kzer-za. Wasn't the question not about a East-North flip, but just supposing the Kohr-Ah would be earlier?
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