The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2020, 06:15:32 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Print
Author Topic: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?  (Read 7331 times)
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2009, 06:31:13 am »

That's like saying that a squad of 50 soldiers wiping out a squad of 200 soldiers, but being wiped out themselves, is a victory. That's only a victory for the armchair generals, the soldiers are all DEAD.

It depends on what you accomplish by doing so. If the death of 50 soldiers buys you some advantage that can be prized higher than their lives, it's your duty as an armchari general (or starfleet commander) to get those sodiers wiped out. For the greater glory.

If those are your last 50 soldiers, then what have you accomplished? Aside from getting them killed, of course.
Logged
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 06:42:56 am »

If those are your last 50 soldiers, then what have you accomplished? Aside from getting them killed, of course.

You've killed the last 200 enemy soldiers, ensuring that they can no longer threaten your civilian population, your civil infrastructure or your way of life. You've also bought yourself some time to train new soldiers while they do the same, and ensured that the next time they send soldiers their morale will be much lower, as they are expecting to encounter a superior force. Furthermore you've hampered our overpopulation problem by removing 250 potential fathers from the word population. Economically speaking, you won't have to hold a lot of parades for the heroes that return from the war, and you've probably also saved a pretty penny on medical rehabilitation of veterans since you now have none. And seeing as you've prevented your own soldiers from rising to prominence, you've also removed the remote chance that one of them might become a politican after the war, gathering followers based on his past military prowess and accomplishments rather than any sound political platform.

So all in all, the benefits of having all your soldiers die whilst wiping out the enemy are far greater than the loss of human life. I don't see how you, in good conscience, could pass up such a opportunity should it present itself.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 06:56:45 am by Lukipela » Logged

What's up doc?
daryy
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 10:32:04 am »

me too,it successfully used its glory device
Logged

Sell saab parts and  restoration products.Find best prices for Mercedes Benz 280E Parts by browsing our complete catalog of discount Mercedes auto parts.
Cedric6014
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 700



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2009, 11:09:43 am »

I'm not sure where civilians come into melee tournaments.

Both teams start with 200 points worth of ships.  Who has something left at the end wins. Why would you create a special rule for Shofixti.

Conceivably another weak ship could make some kind of sacraficing manouver to destroy a more powerful ship resulting in both ships' destruction. Is THAT a tie?
Logged

Play online melee here! http://irc.uqm.stack.nl/
jaychant
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 432


Please visit my homepage


View Profile WWW
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 12:09:42 pm »

I'm not sure where civilians come into melee tournaments.

Both teams start with 200 points worth of ships.  Who has something left at the end wins. Why would you create a special rule for Shofixti.

Conceivably another weak ship could make some kind of sacraficing manouver to destroy a more powerful ship resulting in both ships' destruction. Is THAT a tie?

It isn't normal for both teams to have EXACTLY 200 points. For example, one team might have 199, while the other has 197. So the 197 point team wins. If, by some chance, they have the exact same number of points, it's a tie.
Logged

Please visit my homepage.
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2009, 12:14:29 pm »

I'm not sure where civilians come into melee tournaments.

We're following the age old tradition of topic drift. But obviously you're fighting to protect your civilians in melee as well, so the point is similar although the jargon would be different.

Quote
Both teams start with 200 points worth of ships.  Who has something left at the end wins. Why would you create a special rule for Shofixti.

Technically, the special rule has already been created by the games makers. In fact, to make it extra fun they've provided us with two different rule sets. In SC1 killing the last enemy with your glory device gives you a tie. In SC2 it (apparently?) gives you a victory. Or at least plays the victory ditty. So it's up to you wheteher you want to argue that the SC2 rule supercedes the SC1 rule, or if they are equally valid alternative rule sets.

Quote
Conceivably another weak ship could make some kind of sacraficing manouver to destroy a more powerful ship resulting in both ships' destruction. Is THAT a tie?

How would this happen? An Umgah bumping a Chenjesu into a planet and getting killed at the exact same moment as the Chenjesu? To be serious for a moment I'd say that the Shofixti scores a moral victory by killing his enemy this way, but it's not really a tactical victory.
Logged

What's up doc?
Alvarin
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 795



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2009, 01:25:33 pm »

Look at it from another perspective - Kohr-Ah managed to lure the Shofixty to self-destruct . The fact Kohr-Ah was the lst ship and died in the process doesn't matter - Kohr-Ah wins .

I'd say a tie is a tie .
Logged
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2009, 01:34:08 pm »

Look at it from another perspective - Kohr-Ah managed to lure the Shofixty to self-destruct . The fact Kohr-Ah was the lst ship and died in the process doesn't matter - Kohr-Ah wins .

The Kohr-Ah are genocidal, not suicidal. I don't think "I tricked you into killing me" is one of their more common tactics. But you'd make a fine addition to my army. Just 49 people more who think like you and I'll show that Draxas that some people are happy to be sacrificed for the greater good.
Logged

What's up doc?
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 03:51:24 pm »

If those are your last 50 soldiers, then what have you accomplished? Aside from getting them killed, of course.

You've killed the last 200 enemy soldiers, ensuring that they can no longer threaten your civilian population, your civil infrastructure or your way of life. You've also bought yourself some time to train new soldiers while they do the same, and ensured that the next time they send soldiers their morale will be much lower, as they are expecting to encounter a superior force. Furthermore you've hampered our overpopulation problem by removing 250 potential fathers from the word population. Economically speaking, you won't have to hold a lot of parades for the heroes that return from the war, and you've probably also saved a pretty penny on medical rehabilitation of veterans since you now have none. And seeing as you've prevented your own soldiers from rising to prominence, you've also removed the remote chance that one of them might become a politican after the war, gathering followers based on his past military prowess and accomplishments rather than any sound political platform.

So all in all, the benefits of having all your soldiers die whilst wiping out the enemy are far greater than the loss of human life. I don't see how you, in good conscience, could pass up such a opportunity should it present itself.

So, basically, a draw. A perpetual war (and propaganda) machine like this one could easily wipe out the entire population of both sides while accomplishing nothing in terms of actual gains. So yeah, most of World War 1.

Quote
Quote
Look at it from another perspective - Kohr-Ah managed to lure the Shofixty to self-destruct . The fact Kohr-Ah was the lst ship and died in the process doesn't matter - Kohr-Ah wins .

The Kohr-Ah are genocidal, not suicidal. I don't think "I tricked you into killing me" is one of their more common tactics. But you'd make a fine addition to my army. Just 49 people more who think like you and I'll show that Draxas that some people are happy to be sacrificed for the greater good.

That's a strangely effective propaganda machine, apparently.

Let's look at it this way: Who is the winner of the Thraddash - Ilwrath war (besides Zelnick, anyway)? While it certainly seems like the Thraddash got to take the final parting shot by nuking the Ilwrath homeworld, does that mean they're the winners? Or did the Ilwrath win because they wiped out the Thraddash first before being glassed theselves? Or would you like to apply the logical solution, and declare it a draw since they're both all dead anyway? Answer this question, and you can easily extrapolate it to determinethe winner of your Shofixti - whoever duel.
Logged
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 04:31:56 pm »

Why are you people arguing about this as if it can be decided objectively? o_O

For Shofixti win: the fact its special ability is suicide, ship uniqueness, Star Control 2 ditty.
For tie: strategic point of view, fairness with other ships, Star Control 1.

It's a subjective choice.
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 05:41:27 pm »

So, basically, a draw. A perpetual war (and propaganda) machine like this one could easily wipe out the entire population of both sides while accomplishing nothing in terms of actual gains. So yeah, most of World War 1.

No, a clear victory for the defender who doesn't get his lands sacked and pillaged, and a clear loss for the aggressor who doesn't get to sack and pillage, and has to explain at home why his troops were wiped out by such a small enemy force. There's nothing that says that the war has to continue after such a pyrrhic victory, it may well be that the aggressor realises his folly.

Quote
That's a strangely effective propaganda machine, apparently.

Are you surprised that people are all too happy to die for the stupidest/noblest of reasons?

Quote
Let's look at it this way: Who is the winner of the Thraddash - Ilwrath war (besides Zelnick, anyway)? While it certainly seems like the Thraddash got to take the final parting shot by nuking the Ilwrath homeworld, does that mean they're the winners? Or did the Ilwrath win because they wiped out the Thraddash first before being glassed theselves? Or would you like to apply the logical solution, and declare it a draw since they're both all dead anyway? Answer this question, and you can easily extrapolate it to determinethe winner of your Shofixti - whoever duel.

Although your example isn't relevant to the whole soldier situation (since here all the civvies get wiped out as well, it's easy to answer. The winner is the Traddash, hands down. They were attacked by an unprovoked aggressor, and managed to ensure that the attack cost the Ilwrath much more than they had been expecting to pay. The fact that they managed to run loops around the invading fleet and wipe out the Ilwrath home base is quite impressive. The fact that the end result sees them all ending up dead is irrelevant, the Traddash can declare a moral victory. And since there is no one left to take advantage of the strategic situation neither can claim a strategic victory. So that means one side has a moral victory, and the other has nothing to show.

This thread is much more fun than I expected.

Quote
Why are you people arguing about this as if it can be decided objectively? o_O

I don't really care about the Shofixti scout, I'm just here to argue 50 soldiers vs. 200 soldiers. And apparently also the Traddash Ilwrath war.
Logged

What's up doc?
jaychant
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 432


Please visit my homepage


View Profile WWW
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 10:29:42 pm »

Look at it from another perspective - Kohr-Ah managed to lure the Shofixty to self-destruct . The fact Kohr-Ah was the lst ship and died in the process doesn't matter - Kohr-Ah wins .

I'd say a tie is a tie .

The Kohr-Ah did no such thing. The Shofixti destroyed themselves when they were approached by the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za armada in an attempt to weaken the Ur-Quan forces.
Logged

Please visit my homepage.
SuddenDeath
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 96


from Sunstrike's image pack


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 10:37:03 pm »

Look at it from another perspective - Kohr-Ah managed to lure the Shofixty to self-destruct . The fact Kohr-Ah was the lst ship and died in the process doesn't matter - Kohr-Ah wins .

I'd say a tie is a tie .

The Kohr-Ah did no such thing. The Shofixti destroyed themselves when they were approached by the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za armada in an attempt to weaken the Ur-Quan forces.
Shocked
He said that as a purely hypothetical example in the Super-Melee, not as something that actually happened in SC2 Wink
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2009, 12:07:01 am »

So, basically, a draw. A perpetual war (and propaganda) machine like this one could easily wipe out the entire population of both sides while accomplishing nothing in terms of actual gains. So yeah, most of World War 1.

No, a clear victory for the defender who doesn't get his lands sacked and pillaged, and a clear loss for the aggressor who doesn't get to sack and pillage, and has to explain at home why his troops were wiped out by such a small enemy force. There's nothing that says that the war has to continue after such a pyrrhic victory, it may well be that the aggressor realises his folly.

Not to sound like a filthy hippie, but "There are no winners in war, only losers."

Besides, clearly the 50 troops must have had the high ground, or were far better trained and/or equipped, in which case the agressor's forces may have performed much better than expected. After all, if the 200 had spears, and the 50 had assault rifles, then perhaps the 200 are the winners. They're still all dead, though.

Quote
Quote
That's a strangely effective propaganda machine, apparently.

Are you surprised that people are all too happy to die for the stupidest/noblest of reasons?

Not in the slightest. Human beings seem to have what sometimes seems to be an overwhelming need and desire to throw their lives away. Good for you for helping make that dream a reality!

Quote
Quote
Let's look at it this way: Who is the winner of the Thraddash - Ilwrath war (besides Zelnick, anyway)? While it certainly seems like the Thraddash got to take the final parting shot by nuking the Ilwrath homeworld, does that mean they're the winners? Or did the Ilwrath win because they wiped out the Thraddash first before being glassed theselves? Or would you like to apply the logical solution, and declare it a draw since they're both all dead anyway? Answer this question, and you can easily extrapolate it to determinethe winner of your Shofixti - whoever duel.

Although your example isn't relevant to the whole soldier situation (since here all the civvies get wiped out as well, it's easy to answer. The winner is the Traddash, hands down. They were attacked by an unprovoked aggressor, and managed to ensure that the attack cost the Ilwrath much more than they had been expecting to pay. The fact that they managed to run loops around the invading fleet and wipe out the Ilwrath home base is quite impressive. The fact that the end result sees them all ending up dead is irrelevant, the Traddash can declare a moral victory. And since there is no one left to take advantage of the strategic situation neither can claim a strategic victory. So that means one side has a moral victory, and the other has nothing to show.

Well, one has to say that a moral victory really can't be declared if there's nobody left to gloat about it. Besides, moral high ground seems to be even, because both sides were wiped out fighting for the core tenets of their society: The Ilwrath were being undeniably evil by starting an unprovoked war for the sake of a better scrap, and the Thraddash were fighting someone (and being sneaky and underhanded about it to boot), which is pretty much their sole reason for existing save recounting old stories of how they did the same thing before. So it seems like a draw even in the moral theater.

Quote
This thread is much more fun than I expected.

Same here. Hooray for pointless debate and topic derailment!
Logged
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2009, 05:55:05 am »

He said that as a purely hypothetical example in the Super-Melee, not as something that actually happened in SC2 Wink

Not even a purely hypothetical example, but rather the actual event that led to the creation of this thread. The first post states that they had a Shofixti and a Kohr-ah fighting, and the Shofixti went kaboom.

Draxas, I'll get to your filthy hippydom later Wink
Logged

What's up doc?
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!