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Author Topic: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?  (Read 7330 times)
Son_of_Antares
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Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2009, 09:42:44 am »

I wonder what Lord Vetinari would have to say about this neat little discussion and about the moralities of human survival and human sacrifice...and he would probably be right  Wink  Smiley
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 09:46:25 am by Son_of_Antares » Logged
Draxas
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Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2009, 04:31:04 pm »

Those were provided merely for the sake of saying that only the most callous and distant observers of a battle would think of declaring a victor. Really, those armchair generals are stand-ins for us, who are having this debate.

To me the phrase armchair general implicates someone who is actually commanding those forces from afar. But even distant observers implicate that there will be someone around after the battle.

If a battle is fought in a forest, and nobody is there to observe it, and all 250 troops are wiped out, did any of them make a sound?

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Seriously, though, the whole intent was to show that this scenario, taking place in a vacuum like Super Melee, ends with no victor. Besides, if there were no observers, could we even prove that a battle took place?

In that case I've clearly misunderstood you. Since you started talking about soldiers and commanding officers, I thought you were making a general point about warfare, i.e that in a battle where both sides are wiped out there are no winners. That's what I took issue with, giving examples of situations where sacrifice might be worthwhile. You even replied to that making some general points about WWI which seemed to indicate that my understanding of your example was correct, i.e that we were talking about an actual situation.

But now it seems you were making a specific observation along the lines of:

"If the entire universe consists of only 250 men and all else is void and no observers or outside forces exist, neither force can claim victory if both are wiped out. And only people who do not exist in that universe but rather hover in their own small adjoining universes that are in no way affected by this battle at all can claim that to be a victory. How these people manage to observe a neighbouring universe and why they do so when it has no affect on them is not important for this example. Why they would declare anything victory or defeat in that adjoining but not connected universe is also not known but they just do so."

If so then fair enough, you are of course correct. The only possible argument in this situation is that it puts those poor sods out of their misery, doomed as they are to live in nothingness. That's a pretty horrible fate in itself. That wasn't what I inferred from your example though. And when you started arguing specifics I assumed that my, er, assumption, was correct.

Very good. Now that the original debate is satisfactorily resolved, now we can talk about lands to defend and needless sacrifice and armchair general gloating, while all of those folks looking for some resolution about whether a Shofixti Scout's final suicide is a win or draw (who abandoned this thread about 2 pages ago) will have some resolution via a totally unreasonable and nearly nonsensical metaphorical example. Hooray!

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MAD SCIENTIST! MAD SCIENTIST! Get your tinfoil hat before it's too late!

No thanks, I'll leave the tinfoil to those who need it. You look dashing.

Well, in that case, I suppose I should make a tinfoil goatee to match. That way I can be a lovable tinfoil rogue.

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Also please keep me and my wife away from armed muggers and lopsided battles.

Or at least have the muggers exist in their own separate universes which can be observed but don't really affect you?

That sounds like the best place to put them, yes. Stupid muggers trying to take my stuff.

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Ever see a chicken run around headless after a trip to the chopping block? It's the same sort of thing... Though it may not apply to humans quite as readily.

That's an interesting point. But I'd say that has more to do with random impulses on the bodies side than any coherent thought. If that were the case, I'd assume they'd not run around but rather try to kick the bastard who cut their head off.

Are you sure you want to start a new tangent about a chicken's capacity for revenge? I'd be happy to debate.

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Besides, as EP said, it's a bad example. Not least of all because the scenario described does not involve the death of all participants, which means it's no longer analogous to the original example. Even if you could consider this scenario a "battle," there is no question who the victor is: the hypothetical wife who is still alive. That's like argiung whether or not the original scenario is a win or tie for the Shofixti player while he still has another ship in reserve.

Keep in mind that you're agreeing with someone who thinks that a tornado and a thug has the same level of intelligence. That's an interesting view of the world, but not one I feel inclined to argue about. Regarding the example, it's not bad. You're just staring at the trees so hard that you can't see the forest. Draw a circle around yourself and the mugger. That's your 250 soldiers duking it out. Look outside the circle at your wife and the rest of the world. That's where all those observers and armchair generals that are affected by the outcome of a battle usually hang out.

I guess that means you don't want to debate whether or not weather patterns have a malevolent intelligence of their own. Ah well.

The real problem with you parallel is that your circle is too small. My hypothetical wife (let's call her Hypowife, or perhaps Edna) is in far too close a proximity to the "battle" that is occurring to be considered an outside observer. Considering that, should I fall in battle (or if she decided she might actually want to help instead of letting me do all the work and dying), she will be left to defend herself, it's hard to consider her as anything other than another combatant. That being the case, after my suicidal attack where I beat the mugger to death with my own spine, she would still be left to mourn, as a victorious widow. She wins a bittersweet victory, but at least she's still alive.

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But since we've established that you were apparently making a fairly odd soldier analogy to supermelee rather than talking about actual soldiering, you are of course correct. Now that I see what you're trying to bring forth, your wife and the rest of the world would have to live in another universe to make this work. To be honest, it also makes your example kind of weird.Tthe only such situations we are ever likely to encounter appear in other video games, so you made some sort of simile between an actual videogame and the exact same situation in another theoretical videogame. That doesn't really negate any of the discussion you were responding to, it's still just a matter of how you define victory in the game.

Well, that was the original point of this debate. But that's resolved now, so we don't have to harp on it anymore, right?

.....

You're going to harp on it for the rest of the post, aren't you.

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History is written by the winners, or in this case, the survivors. Since both Ilwarth and Thraddash are dead, that leaves only outside aliens to decide. Besides, the participants probably won't much care who is doing the judging, seeing as how they're all dead.

Except I haven't been arguing about who is writing SC universe history, or human history for that matter. I've been arguing who scores a moral victory from my perspective. The Traddash and Ilwrath won't care about whoever comes after them, since they are dead. And even if some survived (which is not entirely unlikely, given that at least the Ilwrath serve aboard Ur-Quan ships), they still wouldn't care. The only ones who care about what historians say, are those who subscribe to the same worldview. And in the long run, history really isn't an absolute. 1000 years forward the event might be recalled as the "Henious Human Trick"

Well, if we are solely talking about your perspective, then there is hardly a debate to be had. However, if we consider this debate from the viewpoint of the survivors (everyone besides the Ilwrath and Thraddash who might observe the outcome of the war), the issue becomes a bit more murky, but not much. Nobody wins if the outcome is mutual extermination. It's sort of akin to a US - Russian nuclear exchange that glasses both nations (well, assuming that it's a very thorough glassing that eliminates 100% of both populations): the rest of the world might survive to observe the aftermath, but who had the moral high ground or who started it or any other nuance is lost in the fact that both nations have been utterly destroyed.

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Why, the alien judges of history regarding the Ilwrath - Thraddash war, of course. You know, the ones that declared them savages who blasted each other into mutual extinction, resulting in a genocidal draw?

I don't know what history books you've been reading, but mine all say the filthy humans continued their onsalught on the peaceful Hierarchy races. Some of them also mention the old corrupt historians from that age, and their shameful attempts to explain away unwarranted genocide and theft.

Huh. My history books describing the even seem to think that the theft of the Aqua Helix and start of the war made for a terribly amusing good time, har har har. The fact that it ended in mutual genocide just made the punchline that much better, har har har!

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It already is beautiful, and can only become moreso. There is nothing like watching a tangent gracefully extend, then branch chaotically in all directions, consuming the original shape.

Ah, the wonders of nature.

Sometimes, very rarely you get to see a great ending as well. First you branch out and people join the argument. Then slowly, the branches close off, one by one until nothing remain. Like a beatiful tree of words blooming and then dying as winter comes.

And then, years later, when everyone thought that the tree of words had left merely a beautiful and interesting corpse to observe for all the ages, suddenly a new shoot springs from the old, dead wood. And thus the cycle of life is eternal.

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Unfortunately, I am physically but one, and the requisite armchair general observer to boot. So, you may now consider this a recruitment drive. Join the army of 200!

My army of 50 lives in a world with people they love and things to defend. Your army of 200 apparently lives in a small pocket universe where nothing matters (or even exists!) and they eagerly await enemies to prove the futility of their existence. I think suicides might become an issue in your army.

I knew it! You are still harping on that!

I suppose, if it would help recruitment, I could move my army of 200 into the same pocket dimension as yours... If I had an army of 200. Right now, it's just me, the armchair general, still trying to recruit my army of futility to battle against your 50 paragons of peace, love, and defending what's important through mutual extermination.

Maybe I should offer free cookies to everyone who enlists. Better yet, maybe I should just put some slick looking ads on TV; that seems to work for everyone else, apparently.
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Lukipela
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Re: Shofixti KYAAAAAIIIIEEEEE!!!!!! Victory?
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2009, 06:30:19 am »

If a battle is fought in a forest, and nobody is there to observe it, and all 250 troops are wiped out, did any of them make a sound?

I think a better question would be; if Draxas makes a reply on a forum, is it in any way connected to what he is quoting? The Magic 8ball says "Try again later".

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Very good. Now that the original debate is satisfactorily resolved, now we can talk about lands to defend and needless sacrifice and armchair general gloating, while all of those folks looking for some resolution about whether a Shofixti Scout's final suicide is a win or draw (who abandoned this thread about 2 pages ago) will have some resolution via a totally unreasonable and nearly nonsensical metaphorical example. Hooray!

Actually, those of us who have been reading the thread and not just coming up withÖ interesting examples would probably agree that that issue was resolved here, here or at the very latest here. But I can see how you'd miss that.

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Well, in that case, I suppose I should make a tinfoil goatee to match. That way I can be a lovable tinfoil rogue.

On you, it looks dashing. An improvement, really.

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That sounds like the best place to put them, yes. Stupid muggers trying to take my stuff.

I can think of other people who I'd love to shunt into small separate universes at times. It'd be a handy product. The downside is that my company would go bankrupt pretty quickly.

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Are you sure you want to start a new tangent about a chicken's capacity for revenge? I'd be happy to debate.

Keep on trucking, Iím sure itíll work out in the end. Tell me about your thoughts on chicken revenge! Is there any fabric to the rumors that they plan to consume everyone without a tinfoil goatee right this instant?Huh

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I guess that means you don't want to debate whether or not weather patterns have a malevolent intelligence of their own. Ah well.

Not really. But feel free to make an argument and I'll see if it's worth responding to. Be sure to include the difference between tornadoes, typhoons and flash rain. I hear typhoons are real pricks, but tornadoes can be surprisingly helpful around the house.

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The real problem with you parallel is that your circle is too small. My hypothetical wife (let's call her Hypowife, or perhaps Edna) is in far too close a proximity to the "battle" that is occurring to be considered an outside observer. Considering that, should I fall in battle (or if she decided she might actually want to help instead of letting me do all the work and dying), she will be left to defend herself, it's hard to consider her as anything other than another combatant. That being the case, after my suicidal attack where I beat the mugger to death with my own spine, she would still be left to mourn, as a victorious widow. She wins a bittersweet victory, but at least she's still alive.

Wow. This is a pretty good troll, I have to say. I should have caught it earlier but I guess I was too caught up in myself. Well done! On the off chance that all that tinfoil is affecting you and you actually posted "Trees trees trees your example works exactly as intended but I don't just get it", feel free to PM me for an explanation.

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Well, that was the original point of this debate. But that's resolved now, so we don't have to harp on it anymore, right?

.....

You're going to harp on it for the rest of the post, aren't you.

Well, only in the parts of the post where we've been talking about two completely different situations and I feel the need to clarify the difference between what Iíve been talking about and what youíve been talking about. I guess you could call that to harp, but following that logic Iíd prefer you call it bamboozle or masticate. If weíre just assigning random verbs I think they should at least sound funny.

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Well, if we are solely talking about your perspective, then there is hardly a debate to be had. However, if we consider this debate from the viewpoint of the survivors (everyone besides the Ilwrath and Thraddash who might observe the outcome of the war), the issue becomes a bit more murky, but not much. Nobody wins if the outcome is mutual extermination. It's sort of akin to a US - Russian nuclear exchange that glasses both nations (well, assuming that it's a very thorough glassing that eliminates 100% of both populations): the rest of the world might survive to observe the aftermath, but who had the moral high ground or who started it or any other nuance is lost in the fact that both nations have been utterly destroyed.

Well, you did ask me who won the war. You didn't ask me who Star Control historians of your choosing will determine to have won the war. Nor did you ask me what the survivors will think, or what members of other races will think. Tricky distinctions I know, and in hindsight I should probably have assumed that you were talking about some higher absolute truth rather than what you were actually asking for.

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Huh. My history books describing the even seem to think that the theft of the Aqua Helix and start of the war made for a terribly amusing good time, har har har. The fact that it ended in mutual genocide just made the punchline that much better, har har har!

Well, I guess that just goes to show that history isn't always written by the winners and isnít as absolute as you seem to have been making out. That's a good thing for the Persians, but not as good for the person arguing that all that matters is the opinion of the historians.

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And then, years later, when everyone thought that the tree of words had left merely a beautiful and interesting corpse to observe for all the ages, suddenly a new shoot springs from the old, dead wood. And thus the cycle of life is eternal.

Not if you cut it down and make firewood out of it. Then it will just give you a warm satisfied glow and you can plant a new one in the spring!

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I knew it! You are still harping on that!

Bamboozling, please! Actually, I'm being consistent in my post and applying my realisation of your intent to all the places where we've been talking past each other in the interest of good communications. In this case you've not been just talking past me, but also past my recruits, who all signed up for love and honour and such. I don't recall any of them posting "I want to join Lukipelas army in the emptiness of Draxas empty universe of meaninglessness and fight to the death!" But I can see how that would confuse you, seeing as communicating well doesn't exactly appear to be your forte. Tunnel quoting on the other hand, that youíre a natural at that.

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I suppose, if it would help recruitment, I could move my army of 200 into the same pocket dimension as yours...

Here's a helpful hint. My pocket dimension is the actual universe we're living in. What you need to do is find the pocket dimension where your dashingly brilliant example takes place.

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Maybe I should offer free cookies to everyone who enlists. Better yet, maybe I should just put some slick looking ads on TV; that seems to work for everyone else, apparently.

Once you find your pocket dimension, be sure to put some ads on TV. If nothing else, it'll help those of us lacking the psychic ability needed to decipher your examples in threads on internet forums. Money well spent. Wink
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 09:57:08 am by Lukipela » Logged

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