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Author Topic: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod  (Read 136517 times)
Death 999
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #420 on: February 12, 2012, 04:28:06 pm »

By the definition of 'conventional'? The only previous actors to imprison entire races on their home planets were the Kzer-Za, and we all agree they're not exactly moral paragons.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #421 on: February 12, 2012, 04:52:15 pm »

Yes, but "we all" are humans. We might all agree, but the Chmmr obviously did not care, and they made the decision to create the shields, a newly conventionalized punishment absolutely OK by their standards which they're powerful enough to impose on weakling humans.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #422 on: February 12, 2012, 05:17:30 pm »

There's no reason why hostile aliens can't just be contained by conventional means. A decisive military victory would simply leave their fleets decimated and their starship production facilities bombed to a crisp. But is there really a need for sadistic revenge?
Imprisonment is a pretty conventional punishment I think.

But why is there a need for "punishment" at all? War is not a crime, and most wars in our own history don't end with punishment. Sure, there is looting and demands for reparations and all, but not punishment, as in you go and kill 1% for the losing party's population or so. That's exactly why there's a martial law that's different from civilian law. An enemy soldier that attacks you is not a criminal for doing so, and isn't normally punished for it.

As it stands, slave-shielding the Vux comes off as needlessly vengeful. As I said, just defeating them militarily would seem to be entirely sufficient to protect everyone else from their hostility.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #423 on: February 12, 2012, 06:25:11 pm »

And as I said you are not a Chmmr.

Most wars in our history were waged for conquest, started by nobles, and public opinion -- where the vegeful spirit comes from -- had no influence. It gained influence with time while populations became parts of identity groups. Modern wars -- where nationality became an important identity factor -- ended in punishment if there was a clear opportunity (resources and geography) and justification (casualties or ideological differences) to punish the other party.

But yes, maybe "punishment" is not the right word. The Chmmr are not the punishing type (ideally), so their justification might be the protection of Alliance races. The thing is that the VUX were messing with the Alliance, while the Kohr-Ah were still there. What is the solution?

- Let them pirate our fleets, so we're weaker against the Kohr-Ah?
- Cripple their military so they cannot defend themselves against the Kohr-Ah?
- Or put an impenetrable shield around them to protect Alliance citizens, and at least they have some protection against the Kohr-Ah too, with a StarBase in orbit where the Yehat can rally, and an army under the shield in case it becomes cracked?
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #424 on: February 13, 2012, 09:48:01 am »

The whole point of slave shielding VUX and Mycon, storywise, is to show that Chmmr are not as benevolent as Chenjesu.


P.S.
Also, I'm pretty sure there will be story arc regarding Chmmr behavior.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 09:49:43 am by player1 » Logged
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #425 on: February 17, 2012, 11:38:22 am »

That's true.

P6014 is supposed to be an adventure game like SCII was, and as such, I don't see why is it important to always think in realistic proportions and details, and by human standards as if they would always apply to the actions of every form of sentience. But that's because SC being a sci-fi universe, and people often get too serious because of the "sci" part, while pay less attention to the "fi" part, where a writer can afford inaccuracy, abstractions, relativism depending on the style of the setting. The style of Star Control is so permissive you can almost forget seriousness and treat the whole thing as Monkey Island in space.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #426 on: February 18, 2012, 02:10:15 pm »

P6014 is supposed to be an adventure game like SCII was, and as such, I don't see why is it important to always think in realistic proportions and details, and by human standards as if they would always apply to the actions of every form of sentience. But that's because SC being a sci-fi universe, and people often get too serious because of the "sci" part, while pay less attention to the "fi" part, where a writer can afford inaccuracy, abstractions, relativism depending on the style of the setting. The style of Star Control is so permissive you can almost forget seriousness and treat the whole thing as Monkey Island in space.

My point is about creating an engaging story, though: If I don't like any of the characters, because I can't relate to their inhumane and cruel actions, then I might not find it enjoyable to play through the story. And because it's a sequel, I might potentially feel different about the original as well after playing the sequel. That's my main concern, in a nutshell. Also, having a good guy from Part 1 turn out to actually be the evil guy in Part 2 is a very hackneyed cliché, and I would just hope for something a little more original.

That's why I hope that raising these concerns early on in the process may help improve the final result -- but it's all just a personal opinion, and it's only because I'm so excited by the project in its current state that I feel strongly enough to want it to be the best it can be.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #427 on: February 19, 2012, 09:34:55 pm »

It seems I lack the writing talent to answer your reply without dissecting it:

Quote
My point is about creating an engaging story, though: If I don't like any of the characters, because I can't relate to their inhumane and cruel actions, then I might not find it enjoyable to play through the story.
If you have a low tolerance, nobody will force you to play the game.
I mentioned that the Chmmr have more than enough power to become tyrants who don't even need to ask humans about their opinions. I don't understand why is it such a tragedy that aliens make "inhumane" decisions. As much as I know, no previously known SC race will behave out of character without a reason.

Quote
"And because it's a sequel, I might potentially feel different about the original as well after playing the sequel."
Partly agree, that's why I don't like some bitchy rantings in the demo conversations.
But our subject was the Chmmr and their supposed "vengeful" behaviour. Problem with that is: why do you think that the Chmmr = Chenjesu? How much we know about the Chmmr? Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm artificially merged into one species. They were introduced only superficially, as endgame musclepower. Their carefully planned transformation was interrupted by the Captain. 4 years have passed since that interruption. Other factors about difference in behaviour unknown (and possibly spoiler).

Quote
Also, having a good guy from Part 1 turn out to actually be the evil guy in Part 2 is a very hackneyed cliché, and I would just hope for something a little more original.
Also, throwing in the cliché card is a very hackneyed cliché, and I would just hope for something a little more original. Especially when it comes to changes in the story.
It's good that our writers aren't afraid of using cliché if they're useful tools. As many arcs in the P6014 story -- similarly to SC2 -- the Chmmr arc is designed to be part of outlining the progression of the game, which is more important than it's level of originality (subjective depending on personal experience). However, original elements in stories are often embedded into cliché frameworks. Outlawing a category as wide as "having a good guy from Part 1 turn out to actually be the evil guy in Part 2" doesn't help us.

Quote
That's why I hope that raising these concerns early on in the process may help improve the final result -- but it's all just a personal opinion, and it's only because I'm so excited by the project in its current state that I feel strongly enough to want it to be the best it can be.
I know it's all just a personal opinion, that's why it's doubtful that it will help "improve the final result" or make it "the best it can be" rather than making it simply accord to your personal preference.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #428 on: February 20, 2012, 03:08:51 am »

I'd sign that.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #429 on: February 20, 2012, 09:05:36 am »

P6014 is supposed to be an adventure game like SCII was, and as such, I don't see why is it important to always think in realistic proportions and details, and by human standards as if they would always apply to the actions of every form of sentience. But that's because SC being a sci-fi universe, and people often get too serious because of the "sci" part, while pay less attention to the "fi" part, where a writer can afford inaccuracy, abstractions, relativism depending on the style of the setting. The style of Star Control is so permissive you can almost forget seriousness and treat the whole thing as Monkey Island in space.

My point is about creating an engaging story, though: If I don't like any of the characters, because I can't relate to their inhumane and cruel actions, then I might not find it enjoyable to play through the story. And because it's a sequel, I might potentially feel different about the original as well after playing the sequel. That's my main concern, in a nutshell. Also, having a good guy from Part 1 turn out to actually be the evil guy in Part 2 is a very hackneyed cliché, and I would just hope for something a little more original.

That's why I hope that raising these concerns early on in the process may help improve the final result -- but it's all just a personal opinion, and it's only because I'm so excited by the project in its current state that I feel strongly enough to want it to be the best it can be.

It is impossible to make any work of art 100% original. The idea is to use different cliches in such a way that it builds upon what came before it. Would you prefer the game to be a place full of sunshine and rainbows where the good guys save orphans and the bad guys eat babies? We're not children. We do not need a system of black-and-white morality. I for one do not want the Chmmr to be the standard issue, goody two-shoes, generic leader figures. That would be a far worse cliche, and it would waste a perfectly good plot. A good character does not always have to be likable, just how a villainous character does not always have to be completely despicable.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #430 on: February 20, 2012, 08:20:13 pm »

Would you prefer the game to be a place full of sunshine and rainbows where the good guys save orphans and the bad guys eat babies? We're not children. We do not need a system of black-and-white morality. I for one do not want the Chmmr to be the standard issue, goody two-shoes, generic leader figures.
No, of course not -- but perhaps the story could just be about something new that's interesting its own right without the need to put all the established races and people through all this. You see, the fact that the humans and the syreens and the yehat and whatnot were all standing by and thus to some extent condoning the alliance's course of action casts a big shadow over everyone. Mind you, there's already great potential for the story with the Lurg and the new Precursor sites and the Shofixtis' cause and all that, so there's certainly plenty of room for new directions.

I appreciate that nothing is ever 100% original, but in a galaxy so vast and full of the unknown, I'd think that you wouldn't be running short of interesting things to do. Or from another perspective: Imagine one day you wake up, and you're government isn't planning a coup to take over the world - and yet your life can be plenty exciting.

Anyway, it seems like I'm stepping on more toes here than I had intended to, so please do feel free to discount my ramblings; the last thing I'd want is to needlessly get in the way of this great and very promising project. Keep up the good work!
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #431 on: February 20, 2012, 10:24:41 pm »

Should the writer team employ mind reading techniques on you so they would finally get a clue about what is interesting to you? You certainly put much effort into saying nothing -- like a politician -- while complaining against something you have no insight about.

The problem is not that you get in the way of any of us -- you don't -- but the awkward minutes of facepalm you make us (well, me at least) perform by poor arguments based on arbitrary presumptions, while you don't show the slightest intent to say anything useful. Saying that you want something new, something original is not helpful, but friggin' annoying!
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #432 on: February 21, 2012, 09:32:17 am »

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Should the writer team employ mind reading techniques on you so they would finally get a clue about what is interesting to you? You certainly put much effort into saying nothing -- like a politician -- while complaining against something you have no insight about.

The problem is not that you get in the way of any of us -- you don't -- but the awkward minutes of facepalm you make us (well, me at least) perform by poor arguments based on arbitrary presumptions, while you don't show the slightest intent to say anything useful. Saying that you want something new, something original is not helpful, but friggin' annoying!

While I certainly sympathize with your frustration, you might want to take a deep breath there Kwayne. You're making a sequel to something a lot of people hold very dear, so like it or not you'll get a lot of feedback on how you're not quite doing it right. You might not want to let the frustration spill over into insults against people who might come across a bit clumisly, but ultimately mean well. Though that's your call of course.

Anyway, regarding the story I think it's important for those outside the story process to recall that tropes in themselves are not bad. There is a reason they are tropes, and that's because quite often they work well. I have no affiliation with P6014, but based on the stuff in the demo and some of the teaser screens I've seen, I'm fairly confident that they've got some very competent writers that will make this work just fine. There are lots of ways this trope can work, from the Chenjesu not beign as benevolent as you thought to the M:bots strange heritage making itself known to a failure in the Process to a connection to something altoghether different. And the exiting part will be finding out what is going on.

I do agree with hackdx that going along with the Chmmmr shielding other races casts a shadow over other races, but I think that is a good thing. It was mentioned earleir that Star Control is at times almost Monkey Island in space. I think the beauty of it is that it weaves such powerful comedic elements with an actual serious story.  Sure, a lot of the races are pretty wacky, but the Yehat also surrendered in dishonour, the Quan are tortured souls and the even though the Thraddash are silly brutes, you kill them all off in a cold genocide. It's a really werid blend, but it works well. I assume P6014 writers are aiming for something similar.

Anyway, I mostly stay out of these threads because I am looking forward to being surprised but D_999's three word comment jumped out at me in my RSS feed so I got curious. Sorry for the interruption.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #433 on: February 22, 2012, 10:35:15 pm »

I can hold my venom, but people get insulted anyways if they want to. It's a popular sport in the western world. I can't count in anyone's good intentions when evaluating the worth of their critique. I don't say fans shouldn't give feedback, but hackdx asks for too much and gives too little. Wasting a useful plot by deleting the complete Chmmr arc along with others connected to it is not something someone should be able to sweep away with a cheap cliché card and strong convictions. I won't cry my pillow full if he won't play P6014 just because he doesn't like the characters.

About the Chmmr shielding habits casting shadows on others, I'm not sure if that's true, as it depends on the situation. It's quite possible that all the Alliance races are merely in a state of rebuilding, nobody could blame them for having higher priorities. But even if they could have the energy to resist, why would they do? Was either Alliance -- old or new -- a do-good moral crusader boy scout corps? Don't think so. That sort of stuff is in Star Trek.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #434 on: February 23, 2012, 12:04:39 am »

Quote
But our subject was the Chmmr and their supposed "vengeful" behaviour. Problem with that is: why do you think that the Chmmr = Chenjesu? How much we know about the Chmmr? Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm artificially merged into one species. They were introduced only superficially, as endgame musclepower. Their carefully planned transformation was interrupted by the Captain. 4 years have passed since that interruption. Other factors about difference in behaviour unknown (and possibly spoiler).

From the behaviour of the Chmmr in Star Control 2 they remind me a lot about Data from Star Trek - Next generation. Such a race should make all decisions solely based upon logic and reason ( not based upon any emotions ). I also think that the Arilou and the Orz are much better suited for being villains than the Chmmr. I actually doubt that the Orz germinated into androsynth space just to help the commander in his fight against the Ur-Quan. Seems almost implicit that they have some other agenda ( like germinating into the captain and the other species ). I would assume that a battle between the  agenda of the Arilou VS the agenda of the Orz would be the natural contextual background of a Star Control 2 sequel ( kinda like the Vorlons VS the Shadows in Babylon 5 ). As for the Chmmr, it might be interesting to see them infected with a virus which makes them evil ( possibly given to them by the Mycon ). Kinda like Data's evil twin brother Lore in Star Trek - The next generation. Evil behaviour can be completely logical and reasonable. An example would be murdering people with genetic disorders and low IQ in order to improve the genes of mankind.
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