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Author Topic: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod  (Read 138951 times)
Stardrake
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #510 on: April 10, 2012, 07:19:50 am »

They do provide a modicum of inconvenience (they shut down your ability to turn for a few moments) but other than that they just block your line of fire.

To be honest, with their current design the Lurg ship feels more annoying to fight than menacing, at least with the AI. A competantly piloted Cruiser can destroy any number of them against the Awesome cyborg, given enough time - it's just that since it's pretty much pot luck getting enough missile hits past the cloud of bubbles in a short enough time to kill it before it regenerates, it can be a long, frustrating slog. What might help is giving it fewer but more dangerous bubbles and a faster "crew" regeneration rate - that'll stop it from being able to cover a quarter of the starmap with a near-impenetrable bubble field, but put the onus on the enemy ship to deal damage to it fast enough to actually kill it.

Regarding use of the Explorer: You've already essentially started on this path already, so why not do what Blizzard did with the Starcraft and Warcraft 3 demos and make the prologue into a demo that serves as a demo and, well, prologue to the campaign without being directly connected to it? Give the player the surplus of resources that would be expected for someone doing important work for the Alliance and no ability to collect resources, mineral or biological, at all (maybe have the Melnorme put any fuel you need from them on the Alliance's tab) - that way, you dn't have minerals being collected in the prologue or the like. The start of the real game can be when Zelnicki escaping from the destroyed Explorer lands on the surface and manages to get the Precursor ship working sometime when the Lurg are less vigilant, and there you have the Mark 2. On returning to Alliance space, it becomes evident that things have deteriorated such that the Alliance can't give you as much support as they did. (Alternatively, it could be rationalised that anything that the player DID mine had time to replenish - as I recall "mining" in SC2 is simply accessing surface deposits anyway, so unless a player did a LOT of mining in the prologue it can simply be rationalised as tectonics, weather, or meteorite impacts exposing new deposits.)
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #511 on: April 10, 2012, 07:23:49 am »

Quote
I'd have to agree with this, from seeing the dialogue video of the Lurg on YouTube. The Lurg essentially claim that the Ur-Quan knew better than to tangle with them, but the whole point of the Doctrines was that the Ur-Quan saw every other race as a potential threat to be neutralised - they're not going to back down because they meet something that actually is a threat, at most they'll stage a tactical withdrawal, build up until they're more powerful (or fetch the Sa-Matra, like they did with the Alliance) and then return to eliminate the threat.

A more likely explanation (and one that fits with having other alien races in the area) is that the Ur-Quan just didn't get to Lurg space. The Kzer-Za came down from the top of the SC2 map, the Kohr-Ah from the right, while the Project map is to the left and down - the Lurg and other species in the area may have been shielded by the Alliance of Free Stars until the resumption of the Ur-Quan doctrinal wars. The Lurg claim that the Ur-Quan knew better than to tangle with them could then be a literal case of talking big - the Ur-Quan simply never got around to them, but they claim that the Ur-Quan "wisely did to ignore us" in an attempt to intimidate the Captain.

I am not sure I agree with the thoughts on the lurg here. The Impression I have gotten from them is

1) That they are playing the role of the "Puppet Master" and work by manipulation rather then straight combat
2) They have their own precursor device of some sort which may lend to the idea that they could have been threat enough that the Ur-Quan chose to ignore them while they focused on other races.
3) They are full of hot air in their speeches, but they are in fact stronger and more dangerous then the Ur-Quan ever were.

A couple of guesses based on what I have seen-

They either were the creators of or are at least aware of the Mycon's true origins and purpose.
They are indirectly controlling the Kor-Ah
They know a great deal about the Alliance member races and are banking on using that info to cause the alliance to break down.

Quote
To use syntax and language codes, they would need to be standardized, which is just not plausible. Otherwise it's still full language to decipher.

No matter what you do, it will always be a full language to decipher. On earth, we use the fact that we can trace the root languages (Which in most of the western world is either Latin or Germanic)  and as such, know the basic  language codes that govern them even if they do not know a word of the language.

Quote
It's possible to build primers that should be decipherable by anyone, given enough time.
...as we have done before. Remember this fun thread?

The only way to build a primer is to have already translated the language into something.

As far as fake languages go, think about this for an example.

Klingon in Star Trek has all the items necessary to be considered a legitimate language including it's own Syntax and language codes. They made it seem more alien because the creator of it intentional invented difficult grammar rules to govern it.
Al-Bed in Final Fantasy X however is NOT a language and is in fact, according to language rules, a dialect of English. (I am curious how they handled this in the Japanese version)
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #512 on: April 10, 2012, 08:47:30 am »

The problem is that the Ur-Quan at their strength didn't really have a sense of "they're too powerful, leave them alone". They've been going around squashing races that present no current threat to them, including arguably the Alliance of Free Stars until the Ur-Quan attacked them. A race that's actually powerful enough to be a threat even before the Sa-Matra was destroyed is not something they're going to simply ignore.  At best, the Ur-Quan would likely have been planning to return after the second Doctrinal Conflict along with the Sa-Matra and the Kohr-Ah and/or the entire Hierarchy to do the job. This probably goes double for any puppet-master race, since that would be getting far too close to the Dnyarri.

More likely, though, the Ur-Quan simply didn't know the Lurg were there, either missing them in their haste to get to the site of the Doctrinal Conflict (like the Kohr-Ah did with the Druuge, Utwig and Supox) or because the Lurg hid (possibly in QuasiSpace or *below*) and the Lurg are either talking themselves up or genuinely persuade themselves it was because the Ur-Quan is scared of them. Either way, it can still fit the dialogue (especially as the Lurg are deliberately trying to be intimidating, and to be intimidating to the Hero of Sa-Matra they really need to have the claim that they're stronger than enemies Zelnicki has already defeated), but I'm expecting there to be more to it than what the Lurg claim.

As a side-track, one thing I was thinking of saying in my last post but forgot - Is it possible for one race to have two spheres of influence? If so, it might be worth considering giving Earthlings a small sphere around Vela.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #513 on: April 17, 2012, 10:26:15 pm »

The start of the real game can be when Zelnicki escaping from the destroyed Explorer lands on the surface and manages to get the Precursor ship working sometime when the Lurg are less vigilant, and there you have the Mark 2.
Apart from it not actually being the Mark 2, since I thought they wanted to reserve anything involving that for an official sequel...?

(like the Kohr-Ah did with the Druuge, Utwig and Supox)
Well, they didn't actually miss the Utwig... <_<

because the Lurg hid (possibly in QuasiSpace or *below*)
I did kinda imagine the Lurg using orzspace for travel...

As a side-track, one thing I was thinking of saying in my last post but forgot - Is it possible for one race to have two spheres of influence? If so, it might be worth considering giving Earthlings a small sphere around Vela.
I actually like this idea.
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Stardrake
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #514 on: April 18, 2012, 03:23:18 pm »

The start of the real game can be when Zelnicki escaping from the destroyed Explorer lands on the surface and manages to get the Precursor ship working sometime when the Lurg are less vigilant, and there you have the Mark 2.
Apart from it not actually being the Mark 2, since I thought they wanted to reserve anything involving that for an official sequel...?[/quote]1.5, then.  Tongue Either way, if they want to swap from using the Explorer to another Precursor ship, the opportunity is there.

Well, they didn't actually miss the Utwig... <_<[/quote] I don't recall either way whether the Kohr-Ah were aware of the Utwig and Supox before the Utwig and Supox went after them. If they did, though, and certainly AFTER the Utwig and Supox got involved, the Kohr-Ah regarded the Doctrinal Conflict as more important then going and dealing with them, while the Kzer-Za could easily have felt the same regarding the Lurg. (And, for that matter, the Orz and Pkunk.)

EDIT: On further investigation, the Utwig mention encounters with the Kohr-Ah, which implies the latter knew they were there but were concentrating on the Kzer-Za.

I did kinda imagine the Lurg using orzspace for travel...
Or possibly being Orzspace beings of some kind themselves, albeit of a very different kind than Orz. That have that "not from around here" feel.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 03:30:22 pm by Stardrake » Logged
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #515 on: April 18, 2012, 11:08:06 pm »

I don't recall either way whether the Kohr-Ah were aware of the Utwig and Supox before the Utwig and Supox went after them. If they did, though, and certainly AFTER the Utwig and Supox got involved, the Kohr-Ah regarded the Doctrinal Conflict as more important then going and dealing with them, while the Kzer-Za could easily have felt the same regarding the Lurg. (And, for that matter, the Orz and Pkunk.)

EDIT: On further investigation, the Utwig mention encounters with the Kohr-Ah, which implies the latter knew they were there but were concentrating on the Kzer-Za.

IIRC, the Kohr-Ah attempted to cleanse the Utwig after destroying the Burvixese. They stopped once they realized the Kzer-Za were here, and began the Doctrinal Conflict.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #516 on: April 19, 2012, 03:31:13 pm »

I was just looking up the Utwig description of their contact with the Kohr-Ah on sa-matra.net. There was (hostile) contact, but it's not clear whether the Kohr-Ah were attempting to 'cleanse' the Utwig and were diverted by the appearance of the Kzer-Za, or whether they were already heading for the Kzer-Za and some Utwig ships happened to get in the way.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #517 on: April 19, 2012, 03:50:29 pm »

The only way to build a primer is to have already translated the language into something.

Obviously false. Counterexample: Picture dictionary. It's a primer, and doesn't require translating into something.

More generally, a 'primer string' is a message which is designed to be decoded if the listeners guess that it's designed to be decoded and it encodes a language description.

We've had a conversation on this forum in a language we made up as we went along (well, most of it was made up by me before we started), and taught each other only by speaking in that language. The language was not optimized for comprehensibility, but the primer string for that language was.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #518 on: April 19, 2012, 10:32:02 pm »

I was just looking up the Utwig description of their contact with the Kohr-Ah on sa-matra.net. There was (hostile) contact, but it's not clear whether the Kohr-Ah were attempting to 'cleanse' the Utwig and were diverted by the appearance of the Kzer-Za, or whether they were already heading for the Kzer-Za and some Utwig ships happened to get in the way.

Quote from: The Utwig
When the Kohr-Ah started to press towards our homeworld
we thought that our deserved punishment was being administered.
But then, a mystery? They suddenly became disinterested and veered away. Bah! Confounding frustration!
With the Ultron I could speak knowledgeably on this subject!

It seems pretty clear the Kohr-Ah were intending to cleanse the Utwig homeworld - that's not the direction they'd go to reach Crateris from Arcturus.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #519 on: April 20, 2012, 05:25:23 am »

I know I'm new to this forum, but I'm a fan of the Star Control games, as well as, Project 6014.  it's just a little thing and really not a big deal but when I am at the starmap comming from anywhere back to Sol system, the auto pilot confirmation line keeps wanting to jump over to Sirus star closest to Sol. I was also hoping for any news of further developments on "The Project" . I also want to thank Cedric and everyone who has put their effort into this mod.  It has really been good to know that someone out there cares about us lost Star Control fans and truly cares about the content.
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #520 on: April 20, 2012, 09:16:14 pm »

Another newbie, and I just wanna say thansk to the guys making this mod. It looks epic!!! I can't wait for the full game!
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #521 on: April 21, 2012, 04:26:38 am »

Stardrake messed up the tags when quoting me. Tongue
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #522 on: April 26, 2012, 04:28:19 am »

Okay, so I finally played demo 0.2.1.

The last time I played the demo, it was still 0.1x. Imagine my shock when I installed the new HD package!

The menus alone were like the jump from Sega Master System to Sega Genesis [or at least, that's what first came to mind.] Makes me think of some of the better console ports, and games like "Streets of Rage" or "Phantasy Star."

I've already commented on the world-beating graphics, but the new high-res ships are outstanding, as are the planets. I love the planetary rotation. It really feels like Star Control 2.5, made in 2012.

I almost fell out of my chair when the new intro sequence started. Are TFB working on this and you're not telling us?

It's probably worthwhile to update the interface too, although I like the familiarity. It feels like a new game with fresh graphics - except that I know the controls.

If only I could see that giant Chmrr starbase rotating!

Some comments

-New hi-res Menus are verrrrrrrrrrrrry slick

-Game is more user-friendly than I remembered. I appreciated that the maps highlight the capital worlds, and the starmap indicated how to search for systems.

-The blue planet in the system directly below the Vux homeworld [Gamma Luyten I] has exotic mineral deposits, but they are all 1 RU each. Is this intentional?

-The resource placement is very helpful. There is a treasure world on the way to the end cutscene system
(click to show/hide)
that I stumbled upon, which was great for filling up with valuable resources.

The approach of having fewer, but better mining sessions is the right approach.

-The 3 Shofixti search locations are not too helpful. The search for the missing ship would have felt dull and fruitless, except that the path to
(click to show/hide)
was intuitive - the
(click to show/hide)
was more helpful in finding that world than the 3 search locations.

It might be best to scatter some more clues in those systems. Shofixti logs, maybe? Landing marks?

-bad guys were more fun to fight this time. I feared the brown blobs until I realized their function. Earthling cruiser was fun but eventually tedious and I had to withdraw. [I had assumed that the brown blobs dealt 1 damage.] Orz was a fast way of dealing with them. Syreen probably involved the most gameplay and skill. Didn't try the other ships.

Certainly, the Lurg would be more formidable if the brown blobs dealt 1 damage. But they'd have to be worth more, too.

Basically, you need to find a balance between the Lurg's brown blobs, its regeneration, and having an offensive AI. The regeneration really scared me when I was in a long drawn-out fight using a Cruiser - I wouldn't want to increase the speed of regeneration if such fights were expected.

As others have noted, the Lurg is much more terrifying [and in character] when it attacks with the green globs. I like the basic idea of immobilizing and frying that you have established here. You just need to decide whether the Lurg adopt a defensive or offensive strategy.

To be honest, I enjoyed the Lurg ships as they are, and will enjoy kicking their ass all over the galaxy. They can be tweaked or rebalanced, I suppose.

-The Umgah prank must have been very expensive.

-I can't wait to find those 'renegade' Vux ships. Who knows what the starbase commander was hiding?

-The Vux dialog, BTW, was top notch.

-I kept visiting the Syreen over and over again...

--

Now, on other people's thoughts:

The Shofix search areas seem a bit barren. I have to second the idea of 'primitive' civilizations that you can recruit crew from - or at least visit.

I agree with suggestions that Vela should have its own human sphere of influence, if possible.

I keep running into Sirius on the way to Sol.

It's probably not necessary for every star system to have a nebula in the background - perhaps other stellar phonomena would be appropriate at times?

The Chmrr seem to have taken a really hard line on the former hierarchy races. Plus, the Alliance doesn't seem as cheery as it could be. It seems that a lot of this may be connected to plot developments concerning the Chmrr, however.

I don't mind the speed of the Explorer. At least it can do something right! Seriously, though, I find it gives me more initiative if I can manually outrun Kohr-Ah, rather than just sitting there waiting for the autopilot, so you did the right thing there.

The less grinding in hyperspace, the better. Hyperspace is...Hyper-Space, after all. This part of the game is more 'metropolitan' anyway, visiting homeworlds and catching up with old friends - we can always go out on a limb and slowly plod around dangerous places later in the game.

It might be good to limit the range - not the speed - of the Explorer.

There is not enough cargo space in the Explorer to pay for fuel costs.

[It would be cool to run into one rogue Mrrnmhrrm, if that's not connected to the overall "Process" plot.]

Overall, this is going to be a pleasure to recommend to people.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 04:31:32 am by Vindicator » Logged
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #523 on: April 26, 2012, 05:36:34 am »

I must admit, while the Umgah prank was amusing it does raise a lot of questions about how they pulled it off. There's a lot of reasons why my gut feeling is that it couldn't happen:

First, how did the Umgah get a Marauder in the first place? Umgah aren't exactly the strongest race in the quadrant, after all, and even if they were, the Ur-Quan are known for their precautions to prevent their technology from falling into the hands of other races. And, if anything, Kohr-Ah are likely to be even more paranoid than Kzer-Za in that respect.

Second, it was a plot point in SC2 that reverse-engineering a ship wouldn't work - you need native captains too. (Although this could be handwaved by saying it takes longer - you can do it, but not on the timescale available in the first game).

Third, neither the Precursors, the Milieu-era Ur-Quan, or the Melnorme were able to get the Slylandro starfaring. Arguably the Umgah probably are specialists at making specialised life-support systems (look at their own), but space travel for a prank seems like it gets past the tragedy of the Slylandro too easily.

One possible resolution is to come up with a new ship that looks like a Marauder, but has different combat systems - possibly the sort of thing you'd expect from someone who'd heard a description of how a Marauder looks and fights like, but doesn't know the details or have the technology to reproduce it if they did. Alliance races might then assume that it's just a variant (possibly an obsolete one), but for a player who is inclined to shoot first, it might provide a hint. There's also an element that sooner or later Zelnicki might invite a Slylandro ship into his fleet and they have no real reason to refuse, while being able to get fully capable Marauders that way would be a bit cheap...

When it comes to treatment of Hierarchy races... while it does seem in part to be a sign that the Chmmr aren't as benevolent as the Chenjesu, it doesn't seem entirely black and white - the Umgah appear to have been allowed their continued freedom, after all. The VUX and Mycon seem to be cases of being regarded as too dangerous to remain free - the Mycon do destroy planets, after all, and the impression I got is that the VUX continued fighting until the bitter end and that's why the decision was made that they had to be slave-shielded or they just wouldn't give up the war. That said, we do see that the Alliance races don't entirely agree on this - apart from the Chmmr, the races most in support seem to be those that have reasons to have grudges against the VUX and/or the Mycon (the Yehat/Pkunk, for instance, do show their reservations). Races that weren't directly involved in the First War and thus lack such grudges are probably more likely to be against the slave-shielding - but since the Project map starts in the region of the First War and extends rimwards, we don't get much opportunity to hear their viewpoints. (It wouldn't surprise me, though, if part of the reason the Utwig went pacifist is because they decided that an Alliance that resorts to slave-shielding is not one they want to fight for.)
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Re: Project 6014 – Ur-Quan Masters mod
« Reply #524 on: April 27, 2012, 05:47:24 am »

Quote
First, how did the Umgah get a Marauder in the first place? Umgah aren't exactly the strongest race in the quadrant, after all, and even if they were, the Ur-Quan are known for their precautions to prevent their technology from falling into the hands of other races. And, if anything, Kohr-Ah are likely to be even more paranoid than Kzer-Za in that respect.

Second, it was a plot point in SC2 that reverse-engineering a ship wouldn't work - you need native captains too. (Although this could be handwaved by saying it takes longer - you can do it, but not on the timescale available in the first game).

Third, neither the Precursors, the Milieu-era Ur-Quan, or the Melnorme were able to get the Slylandro starfaring. Arguably the Umgah probably are specialists at making specialised life-support systems (look at their own), but space travel for a prank seems like it gets past the tragedy of the Slylandro too easily.

Right now there are a few other holes though that make me feel inclined to wait on an answer to this. First is to what is driving the Kor-Ah now? Without that knowledge, it could be possible this is happening as per their plans to keep the other races off guard

To the second point...I never agreed with the statement in the previous game. Any tech can be reverse engineered at least on a general whole as long as you have the equipment to build it. The general problem I would see is the physical differences between how the races are built would require the controls to be modified as to be usable for another race.

To the third point, i agree.I would trust the Umgah of all races would have the ability to reconfigure the vessels to be able to take the Slyandro off their world. As per it be just for a joke...we are talking about a race that starts wars between species that result in wide spread genocide for laughs. I imagine they would find the situation Hilarious.........why did we let that race live again?
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