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Author Topic: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD  (Read 27311 times)
SuddenDeath
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2009, 03:04:33 pm »

In other words: Patience, young padawan Tongue
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Mormont
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2009, 12:18:30 am »

I'll post here what I said in chat: perhaps a good way to improve the Umgah without pushing it over six points would be to make its cone like SC1. It wasn't any longer, but it was wider.

Zip attacks against slow long-range ships like the Druuge and Mycon would be a bit more effective, but the matchup would definitely still be against the Umgah. Except maybe the cruiser, right now it's not that hard to slip nukes around the cone and this would make it easier to block them - not sure how much it would actually tip the match towards the Umgah though. The Androsynth matchup would be longer, but bubbling would probably still work. Flanking ships would have a harder time, but again I'm not sure how big a difference it'll practically make.

I do remember finding the Umgah to be a respectable opponent in SC1, but I was an absolutely terrible player back then.

Here's the SC1 cone:


For comparision, here's the SC2 cone (it might appear to be longer but that's just because of the resolution and the curvature, I checked to make sure - both cones are just long enough to completely cover the Chenjesu's length):



« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 01:59:35 am by Mormont » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2009, 12:34:30 am »

00:15 -!- jaychant [n=julian@adsl-75-45-186-9.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #uqm-arena
00:16 < jaychant> Hey Elvish_Pillager, how about a game?
00:17 < jaychant> OK, roflcat, are you here?
00:17 < jaychant> How about you Gekko?
00:18 < jaychant> AmonX?
00:18 -!- jaychant [n=julian@adsl-75-45-186-9.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #uqm-arena []
00:20 < Gekko> ... I was going to play with him


23:06 -!- jaychant [i=4b2dba09@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-275131b01af3446e] has joined #uqm-arena
23:07 < jaychant> Shiver_ I don't suppose you're here?
23:08 < jaychant> OK then... AmonX, Gekku, TheMisterCat?
23:09 < jaychant> Oh well...
23:09 -!- jaychant [i=4b2dba09@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-275131b01af3446e] has quit [Client Quit]
23:27 < Shiver_> If he won't read the topic, I can't help him

To further drive the point home, quoting from the SCDB

[08:51] <Shiver_> If I said I was looking for a game, who would be able to play right now?
[09:00] <roflcat> i would totally play you
[09:00] <roflcat> but it would be pointless
[09:06] <gradient> Shiver
[09:06] <gradient> I am free

Oh damn, it took 9 minutes to find an opponent in #uqm-arena at a bad hour, then 6 minutes to find another one. Geez, that was too difficult. I guess I'd better stop playing net melee altogether. Too frustrating to set up a game.

So just wait a bit longer, eh?
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Death 999
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2009, 04:11:08 pm »

mormont - I asked for that very thing in the equivalent SCDB thread... but your graphics really help.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2009, 10:04:52 pm »

Alright, I'll see about making a new Umgah cone for the next release, the one that isn't going to be made for a long time. Thinking about scaling up Chenjesu's battery size, regen and weapon costs so that they're functionally the same, but more resilient against energy drain too.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2009, 06:04:32 am »

Wow, looks great, Shiver! Thanks so much for doing this, I hope it will make melee much more fun.

It wouldn't be a Star Control board without some whining however, so, while I have only played a little bit, I think that, as an avid arilou pilot, I would prefer if the "offensive warp" were activated with the down key instead of a key combination. When I'm behind an ur-quan, zapping it, things get hot really fast and I need to warp out. Usually while I'm blasting away, I have the thrust on. Taking the extra second to turn off the thrust before warping out is dangerous. I usually just end up accidentally "offensive teleporting" to get away, even though I want the defensive one. I think a dedicated key for this ability would be better.

Also, just a thought, having a little ghost icon indicating where you would be warping to would be awesome.

I will refrain from further commentary on your mod until I chat more extensively with you guys in IRC.

Oh, and wait... you didn't include 64 point targeting for the arilou? I was hoping you would, since we talked about it briefly. I find it annoying to waste shots since the arilou battery is kind of small as is.

Going to go rock the Ur-Quan with the Chenjesu now Smiley
God I love being able to do that...
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2009, 07:59:34 pm »

So has anyone else noticed that it's ironically more cost-effective for the Ur-Quan to launch fighters at the Earthling now? Your fighters can provide a useful cover screen against incoming missiles, thus reducing your damage and justifying the risk of launching them. If the Earthling pilot is spending his energy on missiles (i.e. firing a double-salvo, like most people used to do), once your fighters get in, all they need is a couple zaps to drain all his energy and thus disable the point-defense system, quickly disintegrating him. The Earthling pilot now has to be very discerning in how he fires missiles (must in an arc away from fighters now) but also how many he fires (do you want to risk having no energy for the PDL?). It's basically a lot harder to hit the Ur-Quan now. 

Earthling just got nerfed.

Has anyone offered any reason why the point-defense laser should cost any energy at all, really, beyond 1? Its rate of fire is pretty slow, so regardless of energy consumption, it's mostly useless at dealing damage to another ship anyway. Blocking incoming fire is generally a waste of energy, too.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 08:01:39 pm by PsyDev » Logged
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2009, 09:12:32 pm »

PsyDev> wasn't the energy drain supposed to be removed?

Ur-Quan: The desync bug has been fixed. The fighter idle behavior that occurs when at long distances from the enemy ship has been axed. Fighter energy drain removed. Fighter launch cost decreased from 5-per-Fighter to (4-per-Fighter + 2).
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2009, 09:29:56 pm »

Nope. From the PNF thread on the subject:

I did not remove fighter energy drain. Somehow I missed that while updating my text file that contains the list of recent changes. There was a no drain fighter build I tried which you've all heard about in this thread.

Also, regarding the Cruiser:

Ur-Quan that isn't advancing behind fighter cover isn't playing against Earthling properly. A few tips on how to take advantage of this: When a squadron of four approaches, don't turn on the PDL the moment a fighter enters your range. Wait for at least two, preferably the whole squadron, before cutting loose. You'll get hit, but it's still much more energy-efficient. If Ur-Quan is spamming multiple squadrons and hanging back you won't be able to do this, but you should be able to hit the unguarded mothership with a few nukes.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2009, 09:41:31 pm »

Yeah, the energy drain is still there. But, the fighters now charge the Utwig shield normally.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2009, 11:02:26 pm »

Quote from: PsyDev
I think that, as an avid arilou pilot, I would prefer if the "offensive warp" were activated with the down key instead of a key combination. When I'm behind an ur-quan, zapping it, things get hot really fast and I need to warp out. Usually while I'm blasting away, I have the thrust on. Taking the extra second to turn off the thrust before warping out is dangerous. I usually just end up accidentally "offensive teleporting" to get away, even though I want the defensive one. I think a dedicated key for this ability would be better.

Your suggestion would in turn make offensive teleportation less fluid. I'd rather have the escape teleport be somewhat unwieldy than the forward teleport. If a player does go forward when they wanted to escape, how often is that really going to matter? That hurts against Kohr-Ah what with the buzzsaws floating around all over the place, but that's about it. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. If the melee community were more active, I'd take a quick poll on this.


Quote from: PsyDev
Oh, and wait... you didn't include 64 point targeting for the arilou? I was hoping you would, since we talked about it briefly. I find it annoying to waste shots since the arilou battery is kind of small as is.

Ah, nope. Not that I dislike the idea, but that would be difficult for my meager programming skills and it doesn't have much effect on the game. Arilou's laser range has been shortened a touch for several reasons I won't go into at this moment. The laser didn't miss very often due to firing angle limitations before, and that comes up even less often now.


Quote from: PsyDev
So has anyone else noticed that it's ironically more cost-effective for the Ur-Quan to launch fighters at the Earthling now? Your fighters can provide a useful cover screen against incoming missiles, thus reducing your damage and justifying the risk of launching them. If the Earthling pilot is spending his energy on missiles (i.e. firing a double-salvo, like most people used to do), once your fighters get in, all they need is a couple zaps to drain all his energy and thus disable the point-defense system, quickly disintegrating him. The Earthling pilot now has to be very discerning in how he fires missiles (must in an arc away from fighters now) but also how many he fires (do you want to risk having no energy for the PDL?). It's basically a lot harder to hit the Ur-Quan now.

Fighters shooting down small projectiles was implemented to make Ur-Quan effective against Mmrnmhrm missile kiting. Earthling seems to have been caught in that, but I see it as more of a good thing than a bad one. I am not buffing the Earthling Cruiser to make it specifically stronger against Ur-Quan.


Quote from: PsyDev
Has anyone offered any reason why the point-defense laser should cost any energy at all, really, beyond 1?

Game balance. You're asking for upgrades to your favorite ship, while I'm worried about all 25 of them.


Quote from: jaychant
Yeah, the energy drain is still there. But, the fighters now charge the Utwig shield normally.

Gah. So there's still a trace of that "no drain" fighter build left in my code after all. Gonna have to fix that for the next release.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 11:22:07 pm by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2009, 05:02:43 am »

So has anyone else noticed that it's ironically more cost-effective for the Ur-Quan to launch fighters at the Earthling now? Your fighters can provide a useful cover screen against incoming missiles, thus reducing your damage and justifying the risk of launching them. If the Earthling pilot is spending his energy on missiles (i.e. firing a double-salvo, like most people used to do), once your fighters get in, all they need is a couple zaps to drain all his energy and thus disable the point-defense system, quickly disintegrating him. The Earthling pilot now has to be very discerning in how he fires missiles (must in an arc away from fighters now) but also how many he fires (do you want to risk having no energy for the PDL?). It's basically a lot harder to hit the Ur-Quan now.  

Earthling just got nerfed.

Has anyone offered any reason why the point-defense laser should cost any energy at all, really, beyond 1? Its rate of fire is pretty slow, so regardless of energy consumption, it's mostly useless at dealing damage to another ship anyway. Blocking incoming fire is generally a waste of energy, too.
The Cruiser was too effective against the Dreadnought before, considering both the point differential and story stuff. Even when the Dreadnought won, it would sustain a lot more damage than it should against a ship about a third its cost. Think of it more as a buff to the Dreadnought (which it definitely needed, it wasn't worth 30) than a nerf to the Cruiser. It still does decently against the Dreadnought, better than a lot of ships in its price range.

Making point defense cost 1is a really bad idea, are you serious? It would help it in a bunch of matchups. It's a fun and balanced ship as it is, it doesn't need a buff.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2009, 12:08:54 pm »

If you set the point defense cost to 1, you can fire it indefinitely without losing energy, because the secondary weapon delay and energy regeneration delay are the same. If you can use the point defense like this, it makes the Cruiser a tyrant. It's even worse if it costs no energy at all, because then you can use the weapon and still regain energy. In both scenarios, it becomes useless to reserve energy, so the only effective strategy would become "just shoot at the enemy until you win or lose".

I should also note that with such a low point-defense cost, it makes the Cruiser able to maul a ship at close range by continuously attacking the other ship with point-defense. It also makes it impossible for ships like Arilou to close in without getting heavy damage (because point defense never misses).
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2009, 12:39:01 pm »

Yeah, the energy drain is still there.

Oh, so it is. I'm not sure I like that, seems a bit overcomplicated. I guess I'm one of them purists.
Oh well...

perhaps a good way to improve the Umgah without pushing it over six points would be to make its cone like SC1. It wasn't any longer, but it was wider.

Won't that make the Drone annoying to play against? I mean, it takes me a while to scratch its sides as it is (at least against the cyborg).
I really hate this ship, I suck both with it and against it.

Quote from: PsyDev
I think that, as an avid arilou pilot, I would prefer if the "offensive warp" were activated with the down key instead of a key combination.

Your suggestion would in turn make offensive teleportation less fluid.

I agree, but I also agree with PsyDev that activating the escape teleporation is a bit awkward. Perhaps it could be changed otherwise. How about... just hitting Down for escape teleportation? Or how about... using Special for both, and having the Skiff's position decide where it teleports? Only use escape if it's really close to the enemy, and/or not facing it. or something like that. I don't know, just throwing random ideas.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of adding more key combinations. I'd rather have a single Ilwrath firing mode (modified or not) and a single mode/key for Arilou teleporation. But that's just me.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod: ALL ABOARD
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2009, 12:58:23 pm »

What if you made it possible to thrust with either the up or down key? Then if we want to be defensive, we can use the down key and not have to worry about releasing the thrust first when teleporting away.
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