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Death 999
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2009, 05:41:58 am »

To increase its viability as a long range weapon, you could make it longer. If each shot is a huge pillar of flame, a slightly-too-early shot is still a hit.
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 12:30:44 am »

Experimenting with Long Range Fusion variant. Results pending...


To increase its viability as a long range weapon, you could make it longer. If each shot is a huge pillar of flame, a slightly-too-early shot is still a hit.

Yeah, definitely. I'm leaning on duration more than velocity right now to differentiate the weapon from Druuge's mass driver.


Quote from: Rob
What about a Chenjesu type of modification to the fusion bolt?

[...]

Don't like either of those ideas. Ur-Quan needs to be unique, not a knock-off of some other ship. Plus, the Ur-Quan exploding fusion bolt would have to surpass the Chenjesu weapon to make the ship competitive.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 12:40:04 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 03:27:57 am »

How about you keep the current fusion bolt as is and add a super fusion bolt as a third weapon? It could be longer-ranged and have a bigger graphic and hitbox, maybe deal eight damage, but would consume a whole lot of fuel.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:56:10 pm by Mormont » Logged
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 11:36:15 am »

Giving the fusion bolts slight homing ability  (e.g. flagship with one ATS unit) would increase utility. Though perhaps not do much to increase the fun factor of the ship.

Longer range would also be a good idea, though not quite up to the range of the mauler.

While you note that the Dreadnought often has large reserves of energy available, I find that once I get in range, I'm firing fusion bolts constantly an always short of energy. Dropping the cost to make the fusion bolts more spammable would increase effectiveness once in range.

Don't like the shrapnel idea as it duplicates the Broodhome too much.
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2009, 04:15:09 am »

I tried a new fusion bolt with Melnorme red pulse range (a fairly small jump from 1600 to 1800 distance) against Gekko playing various ships and it wasn't nearly enough. Dreadnought projectiles are very easy to avoid with anything when fired over a long distance while moving at their default velocity. So if the solution to the Dreadnought's lackluster performance is longer cannon range, it would pretty much have to become a duplicate of the Druuge projectile. I've decided that that's a bad solution.


Quote from: Bleeding Star
Giving the fusion bolts slight homing ability  (e.g. flagship with one ATS unit) would increase utility. Though perhaps not do much to increase the fun factor of the ship.

This is the next approach that I'm looking into. Some sort of weak homing capability. Maybe make the weapon not seek at all until it has traveled for 6-10 frames. Combine limited homing with slightly longer range and we might have something worth playing as. I'm not sure about the details yet.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 09:22:04 pm by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2009, 06:12:37 am »

/ ! \  DOUBLEPOST  / ! \

I've got a new Dreadnought in Balance Mod v1.21 which is now available for download that uses a semi-homing fusion bolt. I left the mod fighter behavior pattern in (the pursuit AI, not the projectile interdiction or energy drain) so they are still pretty vicious. This build might not be permanent but I gave it a thorough 2 hour testing session with Gekko and it seemed alright. The ship takes more skill to win with than the last one, but there are still plenty of match-ups you can breeze by with indiscriminate fighter spam.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:41:51 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2009, 08:19:14 am »

I've always had the impression that the canonical Ur-Quan dreadnought would have a fusion blaster with a variable charge--that is, the Captain could choose to fire either smaller fusion bolts or to charge up to fire a massively powerful bolt. I imagine that a weapon that can fire many small shots could do them in quick succession, like stream of fusion plasma, at least for a while. In practice this might resemble a "flamethrower" type weapon: weak but likely to hit a target with a flood of fire.

I also like the idea of a fusion blast that explodes at a certain distance from the dreadnought, creating a catastrophic energy release at some point in space, damaging nearby objects. This might be good for the powerful bolt, where the longer you hold down the "charge" button, the more it charges, and also the further it goes before exploding. A possibility, in any case.
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2009, 10:18:39 am »

Fast Dreadnought would probably work, but it wouldn't be thematic to have a Dreadnought that moves faster than Kohr-Ah or Chmmr.


Something I've noticed about the Dreadnought (vanilla or mod) is that it almost always has excess energy around. This is not true of Kohr-Ah or Chmmr at all. Those two ships are constantly leveraging their energy against their opponent throughout combat. Both have energy hog weapons (FRIED, either Chmmr weapon) which are powerful but limited by how fast their ship can recovery battery. The best solution in my view is to nerf the fighters back down to a supporting role and make them cheap on energy to launch, then give Ur-Quan a powerful yet highly inefficient energy hog weapon. This way Ur-Quan players will use the ship's crew as a back-up weapon after their energy banks have been depleted. I can think of two approaches here:

A) Increase the velocity of the fusion cannon so that it functions as a long range weapon, but increase its energy cost significantly. Ur-Quan will be forced to use fighters to protect itself from flanking ships or when under attack while its battery is low. I can use either the jumbo bolt graphic or the regular one depending on how powerful this weapon turns out to be. The downside to this option is that the fusion cannon will be almost identical to the Druuge mass driver in function.

B) Add a third weapon that fires a long range homing projectile which does 1 or 2 damage and eats up 1/2, 3/4ths or even all of the Dreadnought's energy to fire. The downside is that this would be a full-blown third weapon in a game where every other ship has two, and I'm not sure that's a line I want to cross. Ilwrath's tri-flame does partially break this rule already.

Any thoughts on this?


Shiver

I think a tertiary weapon is perhaps more unthematic than increasing the speed.

My suggestion in two parts:
a) Increase the damage of the fusion bolt to 8 or increase the turning rate
b) Only the most recent two fighters launched stay in defence position - the rest attack as usual.

Loses the impenetrable fighter shield while keeping a couple in reserve for Orz marines. Countered by increase in damage or turning rate.



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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2009, 03:48:16 am »

This might be a long shot, but I always envisioned the Ur-Quan Dreadnought as an strategic-industrial ship more than a tactical engagement ship. I read in some canon (either the SC manuals or in the dialogue) that a single Ur-Quan had been known to subdue an entire star system by itself. Given that, I think we can assume that it plays a mothership role and relies heavily on fighters.

In my imagination, I imagine raw material being shipped to the dreadnought where they are fabricated into spare parts and entire fighters. The need for cargo space, lots of fuel storage, machinery for fighter repairs, etc. makes it a hulking behemoth, and not too maneuverable. But this lack of maneuverability is made up for with its capacity to launch huge waves of fighters.

So, how about an Ur-Quan that captures asteroids and then uses them to repair the crew (i.e. to make more fighters?) Make the fighters as they were in SC2, kinda dumb and weak, and prone to running into things (but not to collide with asteroids). This makes them more expendable so that the Ur-Quan can launch wave after wave of fighters without worrying too much about not being able to replace them.
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2009, 04:26:57 am »

I'll keep an eye on this thread of course, but it will be difficult to talk me into implementing a new build. I'm satisfied with using Bleeding Star's idea for the moment.



Quote from: Cedric6014
My suggestion in two parts:
a) Increase the damage of the fusion bolt to 8 or increase the turning rate
b) Only the most recent two fighters launched stay in defence position - the rest attack as usual.

a) Higher fusion bolt damage is a wrong-headed upgrade for sure. Ur-Quan would gain the upper hand against Chmmr and not a lot else.

b) I don't see the point in that. The current fighters aren't so much "defensive" as smart. Their behavior was modeled after the Sa-Matra sentinels by Elivsh Pillager months ago.


I've always had the impression that the canonical Ur-Quan dreadnought would have a fusion blaster with a variable charge--that is, the Captain could choose to fire either smaller fusion bolts or to charge up to fire a massively powerful bolt. I imagine that a weapon that can fire many small shots could do them in quick succession, like stream of fusion plasma, at least for a while. In practice this might resemble a "flamethrower" type weapon: weak but likely to hit a target with a flood of fire.

I also like the idea of a fusion blast that explodes at a certain distance from the dreadnought, creating a catastrophic energy release at some point in space, damaging nearby objects. This might be good for the powerful bolt, where the longer you hold down the "charge" button, the more it charges, and also the further it goes before exploding. A possibility, in any case.

Would you be offended if my response to this was "nope" and little else?


This might be a long shot, but I always envisioned the Ur-Quan Dreadnought as an strategic-industrial ship more than a tactical engagement ship. I read in some canon (either the SC manuals or in the dialogue) that a single Ur-Quan had been known to subdue an entire star system by itself. Given that, I think we can assume that it plays a mothership role and relies heavily on fighters.

In my imagination, I imagine raw material being shipped to the dreadnought where they are fabricated into spare parts and entire fighters. The need for cargo space, lots of fuel storage, machinery for fighter repairs, etc. makes it a hulking behemoth, and not too maneuverable. But this lack of maneuverability is made up for with its capacity to launch huge waves of fighters.

So, how about an Ur-Quan that captures asteroids and then uses them to repair the crew (i.e. to make more fighters?) Make the fighters as they were in SC2, kinda dumb and weak, and prone to running into things (but not to collide with asteroids). This makes them more expendable so that the Ur-Quan can launch wave after wave of fighters without worrying too much about not being able to replace them.


I tried an Ur-Quan build that used crewless robotic fighters back before fighters got all those behavior upgrades. It brought Ur-Quan up to the level of power that I wanted, but it was so hopelessly mindless to play with. The fighters became like those spammable Mmrnmhrm popcorn missiles. This "eat asteroids for crew" approach tries to recreate the same fighter spamminess, but also allows Ur-Quan to self-heal. I am not ever giving anything but Mycon a self-heal ability.
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2010, 12:28:01 pm »

Here comes a new idea - however, it gives a third abilitiy to the Dreadnought.
(In the case if you wants to change the latest version again)

How about (Down+Fire) launches a drone? (The image can be similar to the one which 'greets' you as you approach Earth at the start of the game)

- As the drone reaches the opponent it loses ALL its speed instantly
- Also, it disrupts every move as if the player released every key (eg.  the Trader launches its energy ball instantly, the Marauder's guided spinning blade stops etc.)
- Drone speed is about Orz speed and it follows the enemy ship, but, in an unintelligent way (it won't dodge shots, won't avoid being in front of the opponents weapon etc.)
- It has about 6 HPs so with a few exception one single shot is not enough for destroying it
- Only 1 drone can be active at the same time and it gets destroyed after the first successful hit
- Energy usage shouldn't be too high
- As an extra, it could cause the end of a Guardian's blazer form as well but doesn't affect the Probe's speed
- If it's too weak it can also cause the opponent vessel a 1 second freeze after the successful hit


Pro:
- Unique ability, no other ship has it
- It can force out the opponent from a Gravity Whip
- Devastating against ships with terrible acceleration


Con:
- Third ability which is non-canonique
- It doesn't cause any direct damage
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Death 999
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Re: Modding the Dreadnought, revisited
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2010, 04:26:46 pm »

con: it doesn't fit the ship thematically.

Not doing direct damage is not a problem at all. Of the 25 special abilities, only 10 do damage (fighters, FRIED, tongue, BUTT, PDL, marines, comet, song, glory device, afterburner)
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