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Topic: Ur-Quan lost link (Read 4377 times)
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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What do you mean the brownies were the main antagonists of SC1? Green all the way.
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spinsane
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I think it's pretty non-canonical to suggest there are still brown ur-quan out there, especially WITH the Taalo. The Taalo would've had to break the Dnyarri connection with the Ur-Quan. The Taalo shield isn't that strong and the Ur-Quan are very susceptible, I think they'd've gotten blasted before they'd've had a chance to use it effectively. There are possibilities that there were scout-quans that never got hit by Dnyarri, but they are all single-manned vessels, not enough to reproduce or maintain the true Ur-Quan bloodlines (plus Ur-Quan don't live THAT long).
Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth, but they are so *silly*, they do not want.
Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course.
Here is *good news*!
Six or nine *pieces* ago, myself the Orz did not even *smell* your *level*.
Can you believe? It is so silly! It is such a *happy town*.
Then the Androsynth made some *slippery places* and then Orz can *smell* it.
It *smells* so good Orz are surprised!
I, myself pushed the *fingers* into the *new town* and there are so many *campers*.
First the VUX, but they are such *silly cows*
they ask so much about the Androsynth we must *dance* with them.
Then we can *smell* the Arilou. Again they are *jumping in front*.
It is always! Nnnnggaaahhhhh!
There is *juice squeezing* and then we are not so *frumple*.
Finally we find you, the *happy campers* and the Taalo *playground* for sliding through.
Where are the Taalo? There they are. It is too much fun.
We are too happy, in this *slow time* *heavy space*. It is a better *level* for games.
This is the everything story. Now you know.
This answer is not for *Silly Cows*.
You do not know Taalo. Taalo are not the *friends*.
You are coming to the *playground* and then making words.
Always you make Orz *squeezing juice*. We do not have enough.
I do not want to *smell* you now.
I will tell. This is Taalo *playground*. Do you know?
Taalo is not anymore the *heavy space*. Many *camper* lives they are not here.
To *play* with Taalo, Orz must *spread* into *Pretty Space*.
There are so many good places for this here, Orz are happy.
Of course you do not know Taalo. You are *Campers*.
You cannot going to *Pretty Space*, too bad.
Yes. Yes. You say words, then I say.
It is fun *in between*. More fun than *dancing*.
Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*.
This is why we like the *New Town*. So many *Campers* and then what?
Even the *playgrounds*! Such a surprise!
At this *playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz.
Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?
They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.
Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.
Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you.
Do not feeling bad. You are good enough *campers*, but not yet.
The Orz provide a good bit of information regarding other species that they've encountered. They mention nothing of the Ur-Quan or the Taalo being with the Ur-Quan. I think it is too far fetched to say that the Taalo were able to bring any Ur-Quan with them. The shield would've had to been brought close to an Ur-Quan that would've been trying to kill them. It's in the realm of possibility, but the Orz don't mention them with the Taalo.
The Ur-Quan?! The long brownish guys from the Milieu with all the eyes and arms?
They used to come visit us regularly about three Drahns ago.
They told us about all the interesting things they found from their scouting missions.
They were really nice! Why do you fight with them?
But the Ur-Quan were such good guys!
They had lots of interesting things to tell us about
and they never got impatient with our questions.
Hmmm. Well, I guess a lot can happen to a species in three Drahn
like turning green and evil.
Antagonists? Not really.
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Elerium
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Is it possible that some of them survived the Dnyarri genetic alteration process? That some of them actually were able to fled into the *pretty space* after the Taalo and join with their only friends in their mutual exile (as arne suggests)? And that these Ur-Quan influenced by their silicon-based friends never developed any sort of "ultra-genocidal"/"enslave all" behavior? That there may be such thing as...almost tolerant Ur-Quan (no matter how contradictory or exotic that sounds)?
The Brown Ur-Quan were dominated by the Dynarri- they couldn't have fled with them for the whole race was psionically compelled to kill the Taalo, which they did. The Taalo fled, and are now housed with the Orz in some way.
The ultra-genocidal/enslave all behavior came out of the aftermath of the slaved Ur-Quan-Dynarri war. Before that they were just voracious predators, which the Dynarri "tweaked" genetically for they made the superior slave lifeform in the galaxy. They made them more fallow to obey, and split the genome into two, Green- thinkers, scientists and Black, laborers and soldiers. After having to torture themselves constantly until every last Dynarri fleet was crushed and every last of their species was eradicated/turned into "talking pets" this basically drove them completely insane enough that they feared their species would fall under the same enslaved influence. Due to their torture, their reasoning was extreme- Blacks chose to eradicate all aliens to prevent the problem should their species demise, and the Greens wanted to enslave harshly, yet to them benevolently to prevent their own species demise.
So - what happened to the original, "brown" Ur-Quan? Huh
They were dominated by the Dynarri to genocide "unworthy" races to the Dynarri and act as their personal servants and labor force, eventually erased through them becoming Green/Black Ur-Quan subspecies as the original Brown died off.
But that's quite inconsistent with the original Star Control game, because the main antagonists there are the "brownies"...
SC1 was instigated by the Kzer-Za Ur-Quan (Green) rousing a massive warcry after completing their warfleets and solidifying enough thralls (like the Androsynth) to conquer the other part of the galaxy where the Alliance of Free Stars was, which the Alliance lost.
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« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 08:13:27 pm by Elerium »
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Son_of_Antares
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Arioch, I summon thee...
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What do you mean the brownies were the main antagonists of SC1? Green all the way.
Sorry I permuted while posting - I was thinking about Slave War, not the events of SC1; sorry for the confusion 
Antagonists? Not really.
After they were mind-controlled they do became the main antagonists; event of which Slylandro had no clue because they were quite limited when it comes to acquiring new information about current galactic occurrences. A lot can happen in 3 drahn indeed.
Tnx elerium for that great sc lore post there, but my point is still this:
the original Ur-Quan are depicted as one of the most advanced and most powerful races within the Milieu. Furthermore due to their territorial nature they were used primarily as scouts, to explore and make contact with new races (and offer them membership within the Milieu). So it's reasonable to assume that a big portion of the Ur-Quan population was out "on the field" when the Dynnari took over (and that can't be some trivial number; they are some extraterrestrial form of space alien caterpillars, but even so they are still insects; and insects know how to multiply).
Now, with all this said, how the Dnyarri succeeded in reaching them all? They were sent to scout the Galaxy, and that surely doesn't mean that they'll all be home by supper time. Some groups of explorers could get derailed during the course of their mission (for whatever reason), meaning that they could possibly return decades after the Slave Empire was established. When they would close in to the nearest Milieu colonies, scan/hail them and find out that something has gone horribly wrong, I bet that they would take at least some level of heightened precaution/security measures. And although I do believe that the Dnyarri would surely mind-control most of these scouts, a number of them could escape their "mental trap".
In face of a threat of such magnitude they would sure as hell flee as fast as they can instead of standing their ground and turning into drones. Those few remaining survivors could contact each other, join together and hide, remaining hidden until the threat was over. And the best place to hide is among friends - and their only friends they had were the Taloo. And when those little guys fled before the coming oblivion, the brownies would no doubt tag along...
This sounds plausible doesn't it? 
That's why I like the idea - it could fit in the main story/canon with no problems whatsoever. And I sure would like to see them in some future game mod, they could make for some really interesting story arcs.
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 12:04:28 pm by Son_of_Antares »
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Draxas
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the original Ur-Quan are depicted as one of the most advanced and most powerful races within the Milieu.
Nope! They were actually the last to join, and had the least advanced technology. While I'm sure they spent a good long time getting upgrades from their allies, they were never the most advanced race in the Milieu.
Furthermore due to their territorial nature they were used primarily as scouts, to explore and make contact with new races (and offer them membership within the Milieu).
Funny how no other races ever joined, then. In fact, the only races we can be sure they even found were the Slylandro and Dnyarri.
So it's reasonable to assume that a big portion of the Ur-Quan population was out "on the field" when the Dynnari took over (and that can't be some trivial number; they are some extraterrestrial form of space alien caterpillars, but even so they are still insects; and insects know how to multiply).
Fair enough, but we're not talking about the majority of the Ur-Quan by a long shot. Maybe 5-10% of their population, tops; space exploration requires a lot of manpower on the ground for every ship sent up to space.
Now, with all this said, how the Dnyarri succeeded in reaching them all? They were sent to scout the Galaxy, and that surely doesn't mean that they'll all be home by supper time. Some groups of explorers could get derailed during the course of their mission (for whatever reason), meaning that they could possibly return decades after the Slave Empire was established. When they would close in to the nearest Milieu colonies, scan/hail them and find out that something has gone horribly wrong, I bet that they would take at least some level of heightened precaution/security measures. And although I do believe that the Dnyarri would surely mind-control most of these scouts, a number of them could escape their "mental trap".
The Dnyarri spread themselves across all Milieu worlds very rapidly, conquering the minds of the residents as they went, which means that any long-range scouts first arriving home would likely get inducted into the fold before they even reach communications distance. This goes double if their destination is a primarily Ur-Quan world (quite likely, considering).
In face of a threat of such magnitude they would sure as hell flee as fast as they can instead of standing their ground and turning into drones.
One wonders if that would be the case. Discovering that an unknown alien species has conquered your race and its allies could generate some extremely irrational territorial behavior in a species not particularly well known for rational thought. Grouping for an attack rather than fleeing seems to fit the Ur-Quan mental profile a bit better.
Those few remaining survivors could contact each other, join together and hide, remaining hidden until the threat was over. And the best place to hide is among friends - and their only friends they had were the Taloo. And when those little guys fled before the coming oblivion, the brownies would no doubt tag along...
When have you ever known an Ur-Quan to hide from anything?
How would they even know the invasion was coming? By the time they realized the fleet was on its way, any Ur-Quan that were hiding out with the Taalo would be in mind control range. Even if they did escape, their numbers would probably be insufficient to revitalize their species, considering that even finding a mate without killing them seems to be a serious challenge for the Ur-Quan.
By all accounts, it seems like the Taalo only escaped into *Pretty Space* by the skin of their teeth. The Ur-Quan certainly thought they exterminated the race, and presumably they would have a general idea how large the population was. If the exterminated Taalo only seemed to be a fraction of what was expected, they might have been more aware that an escape took place.
Incidentally, the language the Orz use when discussing the Taalo is a bit on the creepy side (as usual). This excerpt is a bit disturbing when looked at a certain way:
At this *playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz.
Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?
They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.
Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.
Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you.
It seems to me (and I'm not sure why I never saw it this way before) that the Taalo and the Orz aren't on very good terms. In fact, I'd say the Taalo are trapped in *Pretty Space* and running for their lives... Or perhaps, the *Time joke* is that a psychic impression of the race's extermination was left in *Pretty Space*, and they never escaped at all. Either one is a depressing fate for a species with an already sad history.
This sounds plausible doesn't it?
Well, no, not really. Sorry!
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spinsane
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Antagonists? Not really.
After they were mind-controlled they do became the main antagonists; event of which Slylandro had no clue because they were quite limited when it comes to acquiring new information about current galactic occurrences. A lot can happen in 3 drahn indeed.
Dnyarri are the antagonists- the Ur-Quan are actually the protagonists until they start enforcing doctrines...
That's why I like the idea - it could fit in the main story/canon with no problems whatsoever. And I sure would like to see them in some future game mod, they could make for some really interesting story arcs.
I think it's beating a dead bush. It's like trying to bring the Mmrn or Zebranky back- it's just pointless. It isn't an element that will inherently add to the story.
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Draxas
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There is plenty of plot potential revolving around the Ur-Quan without the browns. The biggest question is how their worldviews would have to change now that their symbol of superiority has been destroyed by a coalition of "inferior" races, several of whom were supposedly already slaves of the Kzer-Za. Secondary to that is just how defeated the two Ur-Quan races are, and just how willing to work together or even fight other races they might still be now that they have experienced true defeat for the first time (or in the case of the Kohr-Ah, true defeat by non-Ur-Quan). Between those two points alone, there is plenty of room for plot without bringing up something as farfetched as the revival of a pair of dead races.
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Mormont
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The question of what happens with the Ur-quan is an interesting one. On the one hand, their defeat at the hands of "inferior" races would be humbling and may call the doctrines into question. On the other hand, something that a lot of people overlook is the fact that in the eyes of the Ur-quan, the Alliance essentially made a deal with the devil (the neo-Dnyarri) to defeat them. That might just validate their convictions that other sentient life cannot be trusted. I really can't see the Ur-quan even reaching any sort of benevolent neutrality (much less joining like SC3) with the people that made an alliance with the thing they hate and fear more than anything else in the universe.
I get the feeling that the Kohr-ah would say "See, this just shows we were right all along."
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:23:12 pm by Mormont »
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Alvarin
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One thing for sure - I think they'll have to start relying on translation computers , as both 'Quans would destroy their talking pets just in case .
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SuddenDeath
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from Sunstrike's image pack
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The question of what happens with the Ur-quan is an interesting one. On the one hand, their defeat at the hands of "inferior" races would be humbling and may call the doctrines into question. On the other hand, something that a lot of people overlook is the fact that in the eyes of the Ur-quan, the Alliance essentially made a deal with the devil (the neo-Dnyarri) to defeat them. That might just validate their convictions that other sentient life cannot be trusted. I really can't see the Ur-quan even reaching any sort of benevolent neutrality (much less joining like SC3) with the people that made an alliance with the thing they hate and fear more than anything else in the universe.
I get the feeling that the Kohr-ah would say "See, this just shows we were right all along."
I agree...
Let's take a look at the Doctrinal Conflict. During the first Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah war, the Kzer-Za won thanks to the Sa-Matra. They saw how this could be a bit unfair (they didn't win by their own strength, but through being the first to secure an impenetrable alien battlestation), so they didn't eliminate the Kohr-Ah, just sent them the other way. So this can't really be seen as a failure of the Eternal Doctrine.
This Kzer-Za choice created a stalemate - neither doctrine would ever be defeated, merely one would be dominant. The dominant one receives the Sa-Matra, and dictates which direction (e.g. along or against the galactic spin) each subrace takes next. They go different paths, both enforcing their own doctrines, until they meet again. Rinse, repeat.
Speculative digression:
With the current setup (Kzer-Za dominant) it's possible that the dominating doctrine receives even more benefits: for instance, as long as the PoNaF is dominant, the Kohr-Ah are sworn not to do any damage to slave-shielded worlds (hence the Kzer-Za saying they are protecting us). When the Eternal Doctrine wins, however, the Kohr-Ah are 'right' and are free to take down slave shields and destroy fallow slave races (hence the destruction of Earth, Gaia and Procyon).
Back to the topic... sort of 
I believe that with the defeat of the Ur-Quan we are seeing the last days of the Path of Now and Forever.
The Ur-Quan lost the war... so what do they do? I don't think they would ever surrender, so they either retreat or fight to the death. I'll assume they will retreat...
So, the remaining Ur-Quan forces leave the sector and start regrouping. The Kzer-Za are shocked, angry and uncertain, and a simple message from, say, the Kohr-Ah primat could be enough to shatter the PoNaF doctrine. It would echo the Kzer-Za doubts and go something like this:
The Path of Now and Forever has failed. It maintained that genocide wasn't necessary for the safety of the Ur-Quan species; enslavement is enough. This has been proven wrong - the Kzer-Za battle thralls have turned against their masters (Yehat, Thraddash), and fallow slaves have nullified the Kzer-Za's great answer to the alien threat - the slave shield.
Fallow slaves were left to live in peace. This wasn't enough. The Ur-Quan have shown them mercy, even gave them a great deal of freedom, yet look how the slaves paid them back! Even after numerous Ur-Quan warnings and threats, they didn't stop. They broke the oaths given to the Kzer-Za, thus proving their untrustworthiness. No promise is sacred to them, while the Ur-Quan have always been truthful and honest.
The slave system has failed utterly in ensuring the safety of the Ur-Quan race.
To add insult to injury, the aliens have re-engineered the Neo-Dnyarri and used it against the Ur-Quan! They will use whatever means necessary, no matter how vile or underhanded - no honour.
These aliens are untrustworthy and dangerous - the evidence to this is incontrovertible. The Kzer-Za have hoped that there is a chance that it might not be so, or that it can at least be controlled... that there can be a kind of coexistence. Sadly, this is final proof that such an optimistic view is mistaken.
On the other hand, the Eternal Doctrine has worked well. The first Kohr-Ah defeat was a result of the Sa-Matra chance discovery, while the most recent one is due to weakness caused by the infighting among the Ur-Quan factions.
Without outside interference during it, the Kohr-Ah would have (or indeed have) won the second doctrinal war.
Had the Kohr-Ah come first to the sector, rather than the Kzer-Za, all races would have been annihilated and there would be no threat.
The Eternal Doctrine's only failure so far has been the mistake of allowing the Dnyarri to live. However, the Kzer-Za made the same mistake... and it will now be rectified. No more Dnyarri...
No more divisions.
No more doubts.
No more mercy.
The filth must pay for their transgressions. They will never truly yield unless they are destroyed. It is time to discard the dysfunctional Path of Now and Forever, and once again unite the Ur-Quan. Kill or be killed - there is no alternative.
I envision that nearly all Kzer-Za will turn to the Eternal Doctrine and join the Kohr-Ah. There may be a few stragglers, mostly stubborn conservatives who would ignore the obvious and continue to enforce the PoNaF as if nothing happened. Kzer-Za who would approach and join the Alliance are extremely rare, if there would be any at all.
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Pages: [1] 2
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), I just think that in my subjective opinion it would be cool if something of the sort would actually happen; just imagine: