The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 26, 2024, 02:36:05 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Tips for Ilwrath
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Author Topic: Tips for Ilwrath  (Read 9096 times)
jaychant
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 432


Please visit my homepage


View Profile WWW
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2009, 08:30:07 pm »

How so? An Utwig human player should essentially never lose crew or batt in any fight- they are clearly the best in good hands.

Torch is too fast/manueverable and it's primary has excellent range. The booster has the added bonus of blocking most attacks and zips across the screen faster than most ships can turn. And that pea-shooter is just OP-- it has enough range/rof to take on a Terminator and is also one of the more solid 30 point killers. Those space rhinos are scrappy in the right hands.

Shiver is right.

Humans don't have fast enough reflexes to block every single attack with the Utwig shield.

Also, while Thraddash is overpowered, it doesn't "pwn" every ship. Mostly, it just makes fights extremely long and boring. That's why Thraddash is usually not allowed in PvP.
Logged

Please visit my homepage.
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2009, 09:00:36 pm »

Quote from: spinsane
How so? An Utwig human player should essentially never lose crew or batt in any fight- they are clearly the best in good hands.

The shield is not god mode. There are many ways around it. Melnorme's EMP or VUX's limpets ignore it, for instance. The battery depletes quickly when its opponent has a long range, low damage weapon and faster engines. Among several other ships, Thraddash meets these criteria. You're assuming that perfect shield use is trivial, when it is not. I've beaten Utwig using Druuge against some very good Utwig players -- if perfect shielding were easy, they would have rolled right over me. Utwig is indeed one of the best ships in PVP, but it's ludicrous to declare that it beats everything.


Quote
Torch is too fast/manueverable and it's primary has excellent range. The booster has the added bonus of blocking most attacks and zips across the screen faster than most ships can turn. And that pea-shooter is just OP-- it has enough range/rof to take on a Terminator and is also one of the more solid 30 point killers. Those space rhinos are scrappy in the right hands.

Oh Thraddash is definitely overpowered beyond belief, but how the hell do you kill a half-decent player's Kohr-Ah? If you can do that, you need to get in #uqm-arena like yesterday. I'd love to have another difficult opponent around. More likely, though, you have no experience to back up what you're saying. People who don't even play PVP shouldn't go around telling others how it works. There's enough misinformation about melee floating around as it is.
Logged
spinsane
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 42



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2009, 10:12:31 pm »

Shortly after the game was released (back in the day), it was the only game my family had on the family computer. My brother and I would play hypermelee for the next several years as the only form of gaming entertainment. I can't vouch for my skills now, but without lag/latency, the Utwig and Torch are the overall best ships. Typically the only reason why a Jugger would die was due to the key press limitations on old keyboards.

Quote from: spinsane
How so? An Utwig human player should essentially never lose crew or batt in any fight- they are clearly the best in good hands.

The shield is not god mode. There are many ways around it. Melnorme's EMP or VUX's limpets ignore it, for instance. The battery depletes quickly when its opponent has a long range, low damage weapon and faster engines. Among several other ships, Thraddash meets these criteria. You're assuming that perfect shield use is trivial, when it is not. I've beaten Utwig using Druuge against some very good Utwig players -- if perfect shielding were easy, they would have rolled right over me. Utwig is indeed one of the best ships in PVP, but it's ludicrous to declare that it beats everything.

EMP is just about the only way, and it's still not an easy fight for other reasons. Many 1-hitters fire off multiple shots per button press, and most don't have the range to make the hits count. Intruders don't beat Juggers even if you do hit them with a few limpets. I didn't mean to suggest that an Utwig will kill an infinite amount of ships, just that by and large it is clearly the best overall ship- if two fresh ships start and one of them is a Jugger, the Jugger shouldn't lose (even against Norme). Druuge vs Utwig win? Oookay... in a freak match I've killed a fresh chmmr with a fresh cruiser (my most memorable experience in SC- oh it was epic...), but that is by no means a precedence. IDEALLY a player doesn't lose anything, but even if they do, Jugger still wins.


Quote
Quote
Torch is too fast/manueverable and it's primary has excellent range. The booster has the added bonus of blocking most attacks and zips across the screen faster than most ships can turn. And that pea-shooter is just OP-- it has enough range/rof to take on a Terminator and is also one of the more solid 30 point killers. Those space rhinos are scrappy in the right hands.

Oh Thraddash is definitely overpowered beyond belief, but how the hell do you kill a half-decent player's Kohr-Ah? If you can do that, you need to get in #uqm-arena like yesterday. I'd love to have another difficult opponent around. More likely, though, you have no experience to back up what you're saying. People who don't even play PVP shouldn't go around telling others how it works. There's enough misinformation about melee floating around as it is.

Maurader vs Torch is one of the tougher match-ups for the Torch, but it's range/speed is ample (IMO- if two gods were playing the game, the Torch would typically win). Torch isn't as universal as the Jugger and it's tougher to use, but that pea-shooter will win given enough persistence. Yes, Torch is a boring ship to fight against, but its match-ups aren't nearly as bad as the Eluder vs Terminator match-up.
Logged
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 12:31:04 am »

And now you're back to making declarations again. I am not responding to this fanciful crap point by point. Drop by #uqm-arena and we'll see which of your claims have merit, if any.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3873


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 05:50:41 pm »

Yeah, beating a fresh chmmr with just Earthling cruisers? With optimal play on the earthling side and the Chmmr played poorly but actually doing things... I'd believe nothing less than 5 cruisers.
Logged
Angelfish
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 06:21:13 pm »

This board should have Converse and Attack buttons like in SC2, and ofcourse like in SC2 only allowing further conversation if you've defeated a contester that wanted to attack you Wink.
Logged
Mormont
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 253


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2009, 09:55:43 pm »

Spinsane, anyone who's played even a little net melee will tell you that the Utwig does not have a winning matchup against every single ship. It is nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. It's a good ship and does well against all three 30-pointers but there are cheaper ships that win against it and others that at least have a decent chance of winning. The fact that you think VUX doesn't have a good shot at beating Utwig shows how little you know what you're talking about.

As Shiver says, you should go by the arena to test your claims. And you can't blame it on lag, because if both players have decent connections that's simply not an issue.  Hell, I figured out some ways to beat the Utwig years before net melee, and I'm not even that great a player compared to Shiver and TIberian and others.

The most overpowered ship in the unmodded game besides Thraddash is the Androsynth, not because it's unstoppable but because it's ridiculously cheap for how good it is.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 10:12:22 pm by Mormont » Logged
SweetSassyMolassy
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 271



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2009, 10:27:26 pm »

EMP is just about the only way, and it's still not an easy fight for other reasons. Many 1-hitters fire off multiple shots per button press, and most don't have the range to make the hits count. Intruders don't beat Juggers even if you do hit them with a few limpets. I didn't mean to suggest that an Utwig will kill an infinite amount of ships, just that by and large it is clearly the best overall ship- if two fresh ships start and one of them is a Jugger, the Jugger shouldn't lose (even against Norme). Druuge vs Utwig win? Oookay... in a freak match I've killed a fresh chmmr with a fresh cruiser (my most memorable experience in SC- oh it was epic...), but that is by no means a precedence. IDEALLY a player doesn't lose anything, but even if they do, Jugger still wins.
There's also comet-mode on the Androsynth Blazer, or a few DOGIs from a Chenjesu...
Logged

I am not always understand about what you speak, unfortunately.
spinsane
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 42



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 02:28:26 am »

Oh come on, you guys are all up in a hissy over nothing. All I did was say that the Jugger can beat every ship. Every ship has some way that CAN beat the Jugger, but the Jugger has no legitimate counter. It just doesn't lose consistently to anything, there is no solid jugger-killer. Excuse me for using an extreme statement like, "Utwig > All", but it's inherently vague- not really intended to attack anyone's sense of what is best. I went with defending it mostly for fun, to see what kind of match-ups people profess, but honestly, provoking shiver's rudeness (well, he more or less volunteered) was the more interesting aspect of the conversation. I've had years of experience playing this game person to person-- the Jugger is just the most solid ship out there. Of course it can be beat, of course it can lose, but there isn't anything that really takes it on consistently. A fresh Jugger vs a fresh anything else is never an easy fight. Just thinking in odds- even the holy blazer can't cut it that consistently. Most of my statements were exaggerations to begin with, though that doesn't mean to imply the extremeties of absolutes. "Pwn" and ">" signs should never be taken seriously... The idea behind it, that the Jugger is a more than comparable ship to any other ship out there, isn't illegitimate in the least. I can't think of another ship that can beat every other ship AND beat MOST every other ship with incredible consistency and unmatched longevity. So if I'm wrong-- What ships beat it consistently? What ships make a Jugger the equivalent to cannon fodder? I'd sincerely like to know.

The intruder vs jugger match-up I can't recall very well, but I do remember that the range, turning radius, and speed of a jugger, coupled with an orbital, is plenty to avoid limpets and kill and intruder. You can pulse the intruder's primary in the opening sneak attack to prevent gains on the Jugger's batt or you can hit it with a couple limpets (or both ofc), but the manueverability of the intruder is still going to allow a limpeted jugger to find an LOF, especially if the Jugger can hit max throttle and cruise before getting hit with the limpets. If early limpeting/batt drain doesn't happen, a Jugger can bide his time in an orbital where the intruder has no advantage. I see the Jugger limping away or losing if hit by enough limpets, but I don't know about calling it a 'good' match-up. I'd be happy to have this explained to me.

The cruiser vs avatar match-up was a freak of nature and a fluke, I just said that it happened, not that it could be reproduced with any degree of consistency. A response to the Mauler vs Jugger. It involved a very tight and very careful orbital...

I haven't played SC melee in around 15 years, I'm not really keen on getting back into it as an adult. Though a part of me would find pleasure in the nostalgia, I couldn't make enough time for it to take it seriously. I'm certain that in a relatively short period of time I would make a challenging opponent, sadly it isn't something that interests me enough.
Logged
Cedric6014
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 701



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 08:39:39 am »

Time might have take its toll on your memory of Utwig vs VUX. Once an Utwig sustains but one limpet its aaaaaaaall over. Remember, Utwig has poor accelleration so can't easily evade the limpets.

It's not too time consuming to take 30 min out of your day and stop by #uqm-arena for a melee or two. It is still a bunch of fun even as an adult.

We're all friendly fellows in there (apart from Shiver), and we'll happily illustrate the deficiencies of your Utwig arguements first hand Smiley

Would be great to have another player pop in there every now and then
Logged

Play online melee here! http://irc.uqm.stack.nl/
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2009, 09:39:10 am »

Quote from: Cedric6014
We're all friendly fellows in there (apart from Shiver), and we'll happily illustrate the deficiencies of your Utwig arguements first hand Smiley

 Angry Hey, I'm nothing if not evenhanded in that chatroom. Jaychant gets a free pass to come and go as he pleases in there for Ultron's sake. Didn't you see him in one of the tournaments back when we still had those? No one even gave him any grief.


Quote from: Spinsane
Oh come on, you guys are all up in a hissy over nothing. All I did was say that the Jugger can beat every ship.

And you reiterated that position over and over like a broken record. These other people, being slightly more detached about the subject than myself, are probably irritated by your delivery rather than your message. I will go so far as to say they would be dogpiling on me right now for turning hostile rather than you if your position had been stated more reasonably.


Quote from: Spinsane
I haven't played SC melee in around 15 years, I'm not really keen on getting back into it as an adult. Though a part of me would find pleasure in the nostalgia, I couldn't make enough time for it to take it seriously. I'm certain that in a relatively short period of time I would make a challenging opponent, sadly it isn't something that interests me enough.

Is playing an old video game somehow worse than posting on a video game message board? That's a new one. "Oh, I'm a Trekkie but I don't actually watch the episodes more than once in a lifetime. That's for losers. I just post about minute details of the show on the Internet!" That looks like a cop-out to me, bro. An awfully lame thing after all the bragging you've been doing.


Quote from: Spinsane
So if I'm wrong-- What ships beat it consistently? What ships make a Jugger the equivalent to cannon fodder? I'd sincerely like to know.

So long as the answer involves TheoryCraft rather than an actual demonstration, right?
Logged
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2009, 10:25:34 am »

I will go so far as to say they would be dogpiling on me right now for turning hostile rather than you if your position had been stated more reasonably.

Team Carebear wouldn't want you to turn hostile in both cases, though. Tongue

So if I'm wrong-- What ships beat it consistently? What ships make a Jugger the equivalent to cannon fodder? I'd sincerely like to know.

According to this, Chenjesu, Druuge, Melnorme and Mmrnmhrm. That's probably an incomplete list, because the guide is work in progress and currently ends at Mmrnmhrm.
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3873


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2009, 07:25:15 pm »

And you reiterated that position over and over like a broken record. These other people, being slightly more detached about the subject than myself, are probably irritated by your delivery rather than your message.

Both?

I will go so far as to say they would be dogpiling on me right now for turning hostile rather than you if your position had been stated more reasonably.

Nothing you've said deserved a dogpile at all, even with a blind eye to what anyone else was saying.
Logged
Zeep-Eeep
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 917


Good Grief


View Profile WWW
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2009, 09:45:12 pm »

Spinsane, I think people here are giving you more credit than you deserve. You claim to have played this game 15 years ago, can't be bother to play it now, but you're more than happy to make wild claims which you can't or won't back up. Your attitude is more offensive than your claims. Why not spend some time playing the game, since you're obviously willing to take the time out of your day to post here?

The Utwig ship is pretty awesome, but there are a number of other ships which can defeat it fairly consistantly. The Trader, for example. On even footing, the VUX is more than a match for the Utwig ship. The Eluder is also very good, though it's a long, painful battle to pull it off. Depending on what range the ships start at, the Chenjesu will often win.

There is always a random element in the game play, which prevents one ship from always defeating another. But the ships mentioned above have a pretty good shot at winning against the Jugger if starting at long range and everything else is kept equal.
Logged

What sound does a penguin make?
Cedric6014
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 701



View Profile
Re: Tips for Ilwrath
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2009, 10:18:03 pm »

The Eluder is also very good, though it's a long, painful battle to pull it off.
Let's not go there
Logged

Play online melee here! http://irc.uqm.stack.nl/
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!