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Author Topic: Global Warming Denialist  (Read 20467 times)
SweetSassyMolassy
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #165 on: September 13, 2010, 10:13:15 pm »

Sorry to resurrect this ancient topic. The Starbase Cafe isn't exactly bustling anymore, so I figured that the admins and posters wouldn't mind that much if I reposted on it. Anyway, I found this short paper that's somewhat interesting written by a physics professor at Washington if anyone is interested in reading.

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/climate.html
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Zeracles
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #166 on: September 14, 2010, 04:04:32 am »

Quote from: Katz
Climate is a complicated system with many feedback loops, most of which are not understood.

. . .

Fortunately, global warming is probably good for humanity. Sit back, relax, and watch it happen.
Translates roughly as `we don't understand how the system works, but let's keep screwing with it anyway.' Dangerous thinking.

Quote from: Katz
Leaked emails from the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit showed a number of prominent advocates of drastic anti-greenhouse gas measures engaging in attempts to suppress contrary opinions by a variety of unethical means. Assertions by those embarrassed and their supporters that the leak was "illegal", whether or not valid, amount to a confession of guilt.
Wrong. The investigations only raised questions about transparency.
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SweetSassyMolassy
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #167 on: September 14, 2010, 05:20:24 pm »

Translates roughly as `we don't understand how the system works, but let's keep screwing with it anyway.' Dangerous thinking.

I don't know about that. He isn't exactly telling us to "keep screwing with it". He acknowledged that global warming is happening and it is very likely due to mostly  non-natural emissions, but that drastic carbon emission reducing changes aren't realistic.

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"If global warming is really anthropogenic, what should we do and why? Some people talk about reducing carbon (dioxide) emissions. This is a fantasy. The developed countries aren't going to reduce their emissions much---1% per year is plausible, but 50% or 80% reductions will not happen. Emissions from developing countries will rise rapidly because so many contributors of emission (travel, electric power, infrastructure that requires carbon emission to build) are things people buy more of as they become more prosperous. People won't freeze in the dark for the sake of a scientific theory, even a correct scientific theory. "
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:21:59 pm by SweetSassyMolassy » Logged

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Zeracles
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #168 on: September 15, 2010, 03:24:55 am »

As well as saying it can't be stopped, he says it will probably be good for humanity. Sounds like tacit encouragement to me. Which is stupid because whatever the benefits, it could entail the dislocation of coastal cities, the destruction of fragile ecosystems and the reorganisation of national agricultural efforts.

He is right, though, that the developing countries probably won't help much, because I don't think they should. They have every right to be as dirty as developed countries were during similar periods of their industrialisation, and have every right  to recklessly ignore the warnings for as long as the West did. The first world should stop pointing fingers at the likes of China and start taking responsibility for the example they themselves have set, because evidence for global warming isn't new, nor should it ever have been doubted; it's only the consequences that have now come in from the distant horizon.
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SweetSassyMolassy
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #169 on: September 15, 2010, 03:52:07 am »

As well as saying it can't be stopped, he says it will probably be good for humanity. Sounds like tacit encouragement to me. Which is stupid because whatever the benefits, it could entail the dislocation of coastal cities, the destruction of fragile ecosystems and the reorganisation of national agricultural efforts.
Oh OK, I see what you mean.

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He is right, though, that the developing countries probably won't help much, because I don't think they should. They have every right to be as dirty as developed countries were during similar periods of their industrialisation, and have every right  to recklessly ignore the warnings for as long as the West did. The first world should stop pointing fingers at the likes of China and start taking responsibility for the example they themselves have set, because evidence for global warming isn't new, nor should it ever have been doubted; it's only the consequences that have now come in from the distant horizon.

What? It almost sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. The developed countries have every right to ignore the warnings, yet the warnings should never have been doubted--as in in the past by developed countries? So according to that logic, the developing countries should not doubt that global warming exists, yet they have every right to pretend as if it isn't there. Or, they should be cognizant of what they're doing, since certainly they must be aware of the evidence, but feel free to continue industrializing using old, carbon-producing techniques? That sounds like a bad double-standard. Maybe I'm interpreting what you're saying wrong.
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onpon4
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #170 on: September 15, 2010, 12:30:10 pm »

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He is right, though, that the developing countries probably won't help much, because I don't think they should. They have every right to be as dirty as developed countries were during similar periods of their industrialisation, and have every right  to recklessly ignore the warnings for as long as the West did. The first world should stop pointing fingers at the likes of China and start taking responsibility for the example they themselves have set, because evidence for global warming isn't new, nor should it ever have been doubted; it's only the consequences that have now come in from the distant horizon.

What? It almost sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. The developed countries have every right to ignore the warnings, yet the warnings should never have been doubted--as in in the past by developed countries? So according to that logic, the developing countries should not doubt that global warming exists, yet they have every right to pretend as if it isn't there. Or, they should be cognizant of what they're doing, since certainly they must be aware of the evidence, but feel free to continue industrializing using old, carbon-producing techniques? That sounds like a bad double-standard. Maybe I'm interpreting what you're saying wrong.

He's saying that developed countries (i.e. USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Japan) in the past have set a bad example for developing countries (and still do), so they (we) shouldn't be pointing the finger of blame on developing countries.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 09:11:09 pm by onpon4 » Logged

Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #171 on: September 15, 2010, 01:42:52 pm »

Especially the USA is fucking us all up. They don't give a damn about the environment. So why should we?
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #172 on: September 15, 2010, 07:22:59 pm »

I don't know why there is even a debate. Even if the science claims were bunk, there is no reason to stick with 19th and 20th century technology here in the 21st.

imo Geothermal is the "silver bullet" for green electircal production. Best of all these wells can be built anywhere on earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15xQ82LwDok

And all electric and hydrogen are the "silver bullet" for the transport system.

Imagine going to a majory city and NOT seeing that thick layer of smog.. Or not reading about oil spills, water that burns or a new mountain top leveled. Perhaps not in my life time but someday hopefully.
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SweetSassyMolassy
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #173 on: September 15, 2010, 10:14:05 pm »

They don't give a damn about the environment.

I  want to minimize being contentious any further about this topic since it really won't do any good for anyone, but I'm curious what you're basing this on? Do you have anything specific, or is this just a general feeling you get?
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He is right, though, that the developing countries probably won't help much, because I don't think they should. They have every right to be as dirty as developed countries were during similar periods of their industrialisation, and have every right  to recklessly ignore the warnings for as long as the West did. The first world should stop pointing fingers at the likes of China and start taking responsibility for the example they themselves have set, because evidence for global warming isn't new, nor should it ever have been doubted; it's only the consequences that have now come in from the distant horizon.

What? It almost sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. The developed countries have every right to ignore the warnings, yet the warnings should never have been doubted--as in in the past by developed countries? So according to that logic, the developing countries should not doubt that global warming exists, yet they have every right to pretend as if it isn't there. Or, they should be cognizant of what they're doing, since certainly they must be aware of the evidence, but feel free to continue industrializing using old, carbon-producing techniques? That sounds like a bad double-standard. Maybe I'm interpreting what you're saying wrong.

He's saying that developed countries (i.e. USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Japan) in the past have set a bad example for developing countries (and still do), so they (we) shouldn't be pointing the finger of blame on developing countries.

That isn't really what he said. He not only told westerners to not point the finger of blame (which they probably shouldn't yet), but that further carbon emission producing industrialization in developing countries is justified, even though they're aware of what they're doing.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 10:19:19 pm by SweetSassyMolassy » Logged

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ziper1221
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #174 on: September 15, 2010, 10:35:08 pm »

Especially the USA is fucking us all up. They don't give a damn about the environment. So why should we?

look at china!
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Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #175 on: September 16, 2010, 12:04:44 am »

Especially the USA is fucking us all up. They don't give a damn about the environment. So why should we?

look at china!

Especially the USA is fucking us all up. They don't give a damn about the environment. So why should we?

look at china!

Indeed, they emiss 4.6 metric tonnes per person per year Cheesy. We do 11.6 metric tonnes per person per year, and the USA fucks the world up by doing 19.1 Tongue.
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Alvarin
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2010, 12:09:27 am »

@Angelfish - are these numbers a result of country-wide direct emissions divided by population or derivatives of consumption products production requirements ?
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Zeracles
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2010, 06:23:37 am »

That isn't really what he said. He not only told westerners to not point the finger of blame (which they probably shouldn't yet), but that further carbon emission producing industrialization in developing countries is justified, even though they're aware of what they're doing.
Well, if the developed world was allowed to pump so much shit into the atmospshere for so long, allowing rapid industrialisation with no thought for the consequences, why shouldn't the developing countries be allowed the same privilege? The warnings have been quite clear for both parties. If developing countries don't do this bad thing, they should be compensated for being so gracious, which I think was a sticking point at Copenhagen.

imo Geothermal is the "silver bullet" for green electircal production. Best of all these wells can be built anywhere on earth.
Also, internet to the rescue! Soon, who'll need to travel anymore?
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ziper1221
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2010, 10:35:21 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

I'm glad we're a close second!
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onpon4
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2010, 11:38:10 pm »


Of course, though, when you account for China's massive population vs. the U.S.'s relatively smaller population, you find that the US actually emits more carbon per person.

China: 4.884434 metric tons per person
US: 18.817886462 metruc tons per person

That's almost 4x what China emits per person.

(Note: This is only based on what Wikipedia says for 2007 emissions and 2010 population.)

This has already been pointed out by Angelfish a few posts ago.
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