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Author Topic: Global Warming Denialist  (Read 23760 times)
Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2009, 05:31:08 pm »

Of course, how silly of me not to realize that the vast amount of research done for "A Brief History Of The Vikings" (Jonathan Clements) and "Westviking: The Ancient Norse in Greenland and North America" (Farley Mowat) and the "History of Greenland" (Wikipedia) were all just revisionist propaganda for the global warming denialists. It's foolish of me to belief their accounts of climate and Norse lifestyle over the enlightened posts here.
It's clear now that the climate in Greenland has always been one of snow and ice and it's never changed at all, until now. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2009, 06:18:09 pm »

The same thing happened in siberia by the way. There was research done that concluded that a lake in siberia was way hotter 800000 years ago than it is now.

PS: It would appear that a new movement has arisen, that of the Mycon Deep Child denialists! Juffo-Wup fills my fibers, and I grow turgid....
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2009, 08:56:18 pm »

Of course, how silly of me not to realize that the vast amount of research done for "A Brief History Of The Vikings" (Jonathan Clements) and "Westviking: The Ancient Norse in Greenland and North America" (Farley Mowat) and the "History of Greenland" (Wikipedia) were all just revisionist propaganda for the global warming denialists. It's foolish of me to belief their accounts of climate and Norse lifestyle over the enlightened posts here.
It's clear now that the climate in Greenland has always been one of snow and ice and it's never changed at all, until now. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

I don't like your sarcasm.

I looked it up on the exact same Wikipedia article you referenced, and yes, it was more warm there when the Vikings first arrived. This was due to the medieval warm period, which, might I remind you, was nothing on the global scale compared to the current climate change trend.

And, as I pointed out already, the local climate in an area is not a valid representation of the GLOBAL climate! This is like saying that because your house is clean, all the houses in your neighborhood must be clean.
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Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2009, 09:35:09 pm »

Actually, currently people are doing more research into the Medieval warm period.
See it here: http://www.co2science.org/data/mwp/mwpp.php
One of its goals is to prove that the medieval warm period was a global warm period, not just a north atlantic warm period.
Previously this was assumed the case, mainly because not enough data was available from the southern hemisphere.
I suggest adding this page to your favorites, jaychant, so you can look back to it every once and a while. I personally think such research is tremendously important because once we determine the cause of global warming better and determine how long it will last and possibly how bad it will become, we'll be able to react better to it.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2009, 11:11:01 pm »

Jay,

You're right, I shouldn't use sarcasm, it's impolite. I'm sorry and I'll try to be more civil from here on.

In return, would you mind terribly not using comments like "facepalm" and printing in large bold letters when trying to get a point across? I'd appreciate it if you would.


I think Angelfish brings up a good point. One big problem we face is not having enough data about what was (and is) going on all over the world. Let's say the planet has become slightly warmer between 1950 and 2005. We know that in some regions the temperature has varied a lot in the past. Areas such as Europe and north Africa have experience long periods of warming or cooling. What we don't know, in many cases, is it this was reflected on a global scale or more localized. This makes it harder to tell if trends we see today are linear or cyclic.

Look at seasons, for example. In the north, it's coming on to winter. Most days are cooler than the days before them. On a small scale (and silly), I could take the temperature for a month and predict that in twenty years we'd hit absolute zero. Of course, I know spring will come around and reverse the current trend. I wonder how our view on climate would differ if we had more knowledge on Earth's heating and cooling trends and what causes them.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2009, 11:53:42 pm »

Jay,

You're right, I shouldn't use sarcasm, it's impolite. I'm sorry and I'll try to be more civil from here on.

In return, would you mind terribly not using comments like "facepalm" and printing in large bold letters when trying to get a point across? I'd appreciate it if you would.


I think Angelfish brings up a good point. One big problem we face is not having enough data about what was (and is) going on all over the world. Let's say the planet has become slightly warmer between 1950 and 2005. We know that in some regions the temperature has varied a lot in the past. Areas such as Europe and north Africa have experience long periods of warming or cooling. What we don't know, in many cases, is it this was reflected on a global scale or more localized. This makes it harder to tell if trends we see today are linear or cyclic.

Look at seasons, for example. In the north, it's coming on to winter. Most days are cooler than the days before them. On a small scale (and silly), I could take the temperature for a month and predict that in twenty years we'd hit absolute zero. Of course, I know spring will come around and reverse the current trend. I wonder how our view on climate would differ if we had more knowledge on Earth's heating and cooling trends and what causes them.

So you're saying, you will never support the idea of trying to reduce CO2 emissions until they have evidence of what causes them? There is no such thing as certainty in science, and there is a good chunk of evidence pointing to Carbon Dioxide as the cause for the current warming predicament. And thing is, we can only choose to take action if we do it soon enough. If we're too late, we won't have that choice anymore, and we'll have to take what's coming to us.
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Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2009, 12:22:43 am »

Ofcourse it's a good idea to try and reduce CO2 emissions, but keep in mind that most people from by your standpoint foreign countries don't really buy into the doom and gloom bullcrap that Al Gore and US newspapers have been introducing.
There needs to be solid evidence, everything needs to be researched, to determine the proper course of action. Because, as I already said, it takes a lot of resources to reduce CO2 emissions to prevent global warming... but if CO2 doesn't turn out to be the actual cause GW will still happen, and then we'd have spent lots of research on the wrong things (CO2 neutral vehicles, efficient energy useage). While those resources could have gone to the more basic things like building dykes and relocating people to higher regions. But ofcourse, this'd only be the case if the doom and gloom bullcrap is correct, which I highly doubt.
Also, proper research will have the effect that everyone around the world will believe that CO2 is causing global warming, not just the western countries, because what's the use in reducing CO2 in the USA when China just doubles their CO2 output because they don't believe in GCC!?
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Death 999
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2009, 04:49:16 pm »

One other important thing is - even if CO2 doesn't contribute to Global Warming AT ALL...

CO2 is still making the oceans more acidic.

This is dissolving the reefs.

I trust you do not have to have explained to you how bad that would be.
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Angelfish
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2009, 05:34:25 pm »

You're entirely right, CO2 makes the oceans more acidic.

It is even used for lowering the pH value (and thus increasing the acidity) of swimming pools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#pH_control

But as far as I understand, global warming will enable the oceans to take in less CO2 when they get warmer, right? (try the warming up cola test with a pH testing set to see this). So that would neutralise the effect.

Or am I mistaken and is there a hidden factor that still makes the oceans more acid even though they have become warmer?
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2009, 10:31:21 pm »

You're entirely right, CO2 makes the oceans more acidic.

It is even used for lowering the pH value (and thus increasing the acidity) of swimming pools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#pH_control

But as far as I understand, global warming will enable the oceans to take in less CO2 when they get warmer, right? (try the warming up cola test with a pH testing set to see this). So that would neutralise the effect.

Or am I mistaken and is there a hidden factor that still makes the oceans more acid even though they have become warmer?

Why do you keep arguing that we shouldn't reduce our CO2 emissions? Before you say anything more, please think about why you are discouraging efforts to reduce CO2 emissions. What is your purpose?

If you can't think of a good reason, then you should stop arguing, because it does you no good. Switching over to alternative fuel sources is something we're going to need to do soon anyway (as Death 999 already stated), so there is no reason why we shouldn't switch over to alternative energy sources now.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that it would be stupid for us to "wait until they know exactly what causes Global Warming", because scientists will never know ANYTHING for certain. There is already enough evidence to reasonably believe that Global Warming is caused by our emissions of CO2.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2009, 11:15:00 pm »

You're entirely right, CO2 makes the oceans more acidic.

It is even used for lowering the pH value (and thus increasing the acidity) of swimming pools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#pH_control

But as far as I understand, global warming will enable the oceans to take in less CO2 when they get warmer, right? (try the warming up cola test with a pH testing set to see this). So that would neutralise the effect.

Or am I mistaken and is there a hidden factor that still makes the oceans more acid even though they have become warmer?

Why do you keep arguing that we shouldn't reduce our CO2 emissions? Before you say anything more, please think about why you are discouraging efforts to reduce CO2 emissions. What is your purpose?

Does my purpose matter? I'm trying to get to the bottom of this issue, provide arguments and all you do is question my motives, and blame things on exxon instead of providing actual arguments to your cause? I was hoping that you could actuallly teach me something but everything you say is so easily refuted, and then you go on to different methods like you are doing now, while you could've just provided me with scientific data that disproved what I just said.
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If you can't think of a good reason, then you should stop arguing, because it does you no good. Switching over to alternative fuel sources is something we're going to need to do soon anyway (as Death 999 already stated), so there is no reason why we shouldn't switch over to alternative energy sources now.

Ofcourse we should! I know that we will run out of oil in time. But that's an entirely different discussion. To be honest, I believe that if mankind is so greedy to take all earth's fossil fuels, then it should learn to live without them once they run out.
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Furthermore, I would like to point out that it would be stupid for us to "wait until they know exactly what causes Global Warming", because scientists will never know ANYTHING for certain. There is already enough evidence to reasonably believe that Global Warming is caused by our emissions of CO2.

Then I would like to see that evidence posted in this thread so we can comment on it. And you are entirely right about not waiting to do anything. That's why I said that between now and 25 years, people need to start to be located to higher regions, dykes need to be built etc etc.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2009, 12:40:52 am »

Does my purpose matter? I'm trying to get to the bottom of this issue, provide arguments and all you do is question my motives, and blame things on exxon instead of providing actual arguments to your cause? I was hoping that you could actuallly teach me something but everything you say is so easily refuted, and then you go on to different methods like you are doing now, while you could've just provided me with scientific data that disproved what I just said.

Yes, it matters because you seem from my point of view that you are just debating because you don't want to be wrong.

Also, let me set this straight right now: I can teach you absolutely NOTHING. I am not a teacher, and I am not trying to teach you. If you want to learn, I suggest you do some research yourself. I am just a 16-year-old aspiring emcee who is trying to convince you that we should do something to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.

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Ofcourse we should! I know that we will run out of oil in time. But that's an entirely different discussion.

It's not a different discussion at all. The fact that we are about to run out of oil to burn is another reason we should stop depending on burning it.

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And you are entirely right about not waiting to do anything. That's why I said that between now and 25 years, people need to start to be located to higher regions, dykes need to be built etc etc.

You are still on the assumption that the main effect of Global Warming will be a rise in sea level, and that's just not the case. Have you watched How It All Ends (the video posted earlier) and its expansion pack? Be sure to watch How It All Ends: Scare Tactics.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2009, 03:36:55 am »

So you're saying, you will never support the idea of trying to reduce CO2 emissions until they have evidence of what causes them? There is no such thing as certainty in science, and there is a good chunk of evidence pointing to Carbon Dioxide as the cause for the current warming predicament. And thing is, we can only choose to take action if we do it soon enough. If we're too late, we won't have that choice anymore, and we'll have to take what's coming to us.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. In fact, if you go back and re-read earlier parts of this thread, you'll see that I stated we (humans) should reduce our environmental foot print, regardless of whether we're causing global warming. I think the human race should focus on reducing our population, reducing out impact on the environment and find renewable sources of energy as much as possible, regardless of whether the planet's temperature is changing.

The same processes that create CO2 are often also the same processes that put lots of other unhealthy garbage in the air.

What I was saying in my previous post was that we're missing large chunks of data and perspective that would be helpful in figuring out
A) What our planet's past climates have been like.
B) If current trends are likely part of a big pattern or a new experience.
C) What the current trends really are (or aren't).
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2009, 12:51:56 pm »

Now I'm beginning to feel like an idiot... Embarrassed

If you agree that we should reduce CO2 emissions, I shouldn't be arguing. Sorry.

By the way, I have great news! This will likely be the last post I ever make on this forum. Since I have been moving into music, I have also been moving out of the internet. So yeah... Bye bye!

Unless, of course, it's bad news, in which case, I'm sorry, but I've just lost interest.
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Re: Global Warming Denialist
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2009, 12:57:24 pm »

Don't worry. You'll be back Cheesy.
Just like me Wink. It just took me 9 years or something Cheesy.
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