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Author Topic: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?  (Read 7678 times)
ziper1221
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2010, 12:45:35 am »

I pay for MMO's because Griefing is fun!  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Admiral Zeratul
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2010, 01:36:16 am »

I pay for MMO's because Griefing is fun!  Smiley Smiley Smiley

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Mad Cat
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2010, 08:01:54 am »

Yes there would. The subscription model is the one that can consistently earn the most money, and this would be an Activision game. It's foregone conclusion; they won't mess around with a less profitable formula.

Even if you had a time machine and travelled to the future to find out and tell us that, it's still not a forgone conclusion.  DDO went from being the 7th or 10th most popular MMO to the 3rd most popular after it went to a microstransaction system.  Companies would be stupid not to explore this as a possibility. Real Time Worlds, the studio that made the APB MMO, went bankrupt in less than 90 days because their subscription-based MMO was competing against dozens of free-to-play online shooter games.

If you are a company looking at making an MMO, especially one as successful as Activision, you're going to look at how other MMOs and their business models are doing so that you can make a successful business model for themselves.


I think (and this is going to make me seem really old, which is not entirely untrue) this may be something of a generation gap thing. I grew up gaming, but until the mid 90's or so, multiplayer consisted of me and a bunch of friends crowded around the TV or PC monitor, passing around controllers or trying to cram our hands onto a single keyboard. And it was great fun. Even once LAN gaming started to get popular with Doom and the like, the internet connections weren't fast enough to support online gaming terribly well, and lugging desktop setups around to each others' houses was a rare occurrance because it was a major pain, and required lots of setup to get working correctly. By the time internet gaming really took off, I had already graduated from college. So when I think of awesome multiplayer experiences, I'm thinking of round-robin SC2 super melee on my old 486, or vs. mode on Street Fighter 2 on my friend's Genesis, or a bunch of us gathered around the N64 for some Goldeneye or Perfect Dark. Basically, it's a face-to-face experience for me, and so dealing with the faceless masses of GIFs is something that compares unfavorably.

It's not a generation gap thing.  I'm probably roughly your age, as are many people I know who play WoW; some are definitely older than you.

That being said, playing an MMO is a vastly different experience than playing a DOOM deathmatch on LAN or Hyper Melee on one keyboard.


The main problem is how this ties into issue #1. My tolerance for that same BS drops right through the floor and starts heading for the Earth's core if I know I'm paying real life money for the privledge of playing the game. If I've paid, let's say, $15 for that month, and I spend that month getting griefed or berated about my character build or harassed by goldfarmers, I don't consider that money well spent somehow.

I understand, and I'm positive the devs agree with you.  Remember, they want you to keep playing the game.  If some people are ruining the gaming experience for large amounts of others, they will do something about it, as it's ultimately in their best interest.

That being said, I cannot imagine anyone paying $15 a month just to troll and grief others, especially when the threat of being banned from the game is real.  That's a far bigger waste of $15 than you'll probably ever experience while playing nice with others.


That's what I've been saying this whole thread, and yet people are still arguing with me for some reason. Wink

Because you are taking a handful of very small incidents and blowing them up into this big problem.  Again, I've play WoW for several years, as well as other MMOs sporadically, and I VERY RARELY encounter griefers and SHFGs.  But you make it sound like 98% of the playerbase of a StarCon MMO will be griefers and SHFGs.


And yet, still wouldn't be half as awesome. We're talking about my #1 game of all time here; all the logic in the world isn't going to change that. Tongue

Well, no, but so what?  NO game is ever going to bump your #1 favourite of all time from the #1 spot.

That being said, quantifying it as "half" as awesome is supposition; you won't really know until you see and play it.


Yes, it is. You've played WoW for 2400 hours. Think about that a second; that is a tremedous amount of time. If I had played any of the games I mentioned for that long, my cost per hour would be miniscule.

But you'd have only a fraction of the content.  Remember, I only have ONE max level character, so it's not like I kept constantly replaying the same content over and over again.  Over the years a lot of new additions and changes have been made to the game.  If there hadn't, I wouldn't play.  For example, I got bored of WoW back in April and haven't played it since.  And I probably won't go back to it for several more months, especially not until the new expansion is released, as I ran out of stuff to do.  Believe it or not, I have NOT experienced all the content that is offered in WoW.  I've probably experienced only about half of it.  So just keep that in mind next time you read that I spent 2400 hours playing the game.


It's 2 cents for Super Metroid, and less than 1 cent for the others. Besides, unless you sink even more time into it in a given month (is there any time left?) your figures only get worse, and mine only get better. Subscription fees are a money pit no matter how you try to spin them.

Er, huh?  I had 9 hours a week coming out to about 50 cents a day.  That's just a bit more than an hour a day average.  If you cannot make time to spend an hour day average on your hobby then your life must really suck.


If I had $600 to burn, would I find something worthwhile to do with it? Most definitely, and it sure wouldn't be sunk into a single game.

It doesn't work like that.  You pay as much or as little as you want for as much or as little time as you want (with some restrictions, of course, since it's monthly).  This is especially true if the MMO is microtransaction based.  If Blizzard said playing WoW for 3 years straight will cost you $600, no one would play it.


And yet, you're never really alone, are you? If I want to play a game solo, why bother with the other people at all? And yet they're inescapable (until you hit an instanced dungeon, anyway).

Playing solo and playing alone are not necessarily the same thing.  And I don't know why anyone would bother playing an MMO solo; to me it defeats the purpose, but apparently, there are an awful lot of people like this.


Hey, does everyone know what the second most popular MMO in the world is? Final Fantasy 11. How much solo content does that game have? ZERO.

How popular is it in North America?


See discussion above about my tolerance for BS.

See my earlier point about your assumption that there will be a significant amount of BS, even by your standards.


This is the worst argument I've ever seen. Sorry, simple statement of fact; please read it again and revise. I would much rather play a game like this with friends I already have than all alone or with random Internet People, that's a no brainer. At least I know I can trust my friends and they have my back.

It's a statement of fact that I've had problems because I played WoW with friends.  One of two scenarios kept cropping up: either they weren't online and I couldn't play my main else I'd outlevel them, or I was content playing an alt and they hopped online to play with my main when I wasn't in the mood to play my main.  "My time" ended up becoming "our time" and it put a strain on the fun at times.

As someone who claims to value their free time, I don't understand how you cannot understand this point.


Psh. You're nuts, even the spambots on this board sometimes advertise WoW gold. Don't even try to tell me they don't exist.

 Huh How does "barely" translate to "they don't exist"?

You said your tolerance for BS was low, but I think you grossly underestimate just how low it is if very rare occurrences of trolls and spambots are enough to send you into a rage.  If that is really the case, I think you're more in danger of being "nuts" than I am.


Maybe so. Then again, I've been MUDding and playing BBS games since the early '90s, and the same issues were concerns back then as well. Why would I have any reason to believe that things have changed?

If you've been playing multiplayer games as long as you have, it should come as no surprise that unmoderate or loosely moderated, free-to-play multiplayer games attract trolls.  Although I cannot say for certain, I'm pretty sure there is some correlation between the cost of a game and the amount of anonymity it offers and the number of griefers it has.

Remember, I'm talking about setting up a triple-A StarCon MMO with full features and support, not a SC2 re-skin of Maple Story.


It means "Why think of fresh and innovative ideas for our new MMO, when we could just reskin and make some minor variations on well established concepts from an existing game? We'll still make money either way, but it'll take a lot less time and money if we make a clone." Programmers may not (always) think like this, but executives almost always do.

In that case they are idiots who deserve to fail.  See my earlier point about the collapse of Real Time Worlds because of their APB MMO.  As I pointed out several weeks ago when this discussion started, it is increasingly becoming clear that reskinning tired ideas from other MMOs is a recipe for disaster and ultimately financial ruin.


Runescape is the most popular free-to-play MMO in the world, so despite your personal opinion of it, that means something. Maple Story is, well, different from the norm, which is exactly why I wanted to try it; it's time I can never get back, and also taught me a lot about how little admins and moderators on a free-to-play game actually care about your concerns if you haven't shelled out real money for them.

Like I said: you get what you pay for.


They're my two worst experiences, but both are extremely popular despite that. They're both also perfect examples of the kind of playerbase you can expect if you use a payment model other than subscriptions.

They are popular and full of tards because they are free.


Hey, if my options are go for a walk and get mugged, or pay $15 a month to walk in a special park where I may still get mugged but it's less likely, I'll just stay home.

OR, you could go for a walk, for free, in a nice neighbourhood. Smiley


Like I said above, I've been MUDding for a long time, and I've sampled a few other MMOs even more obscure than RS and Maple. These issues are as old as online gaming is, and try as you might, you can't excise them from the experience.

And you didn't think that maybe, just maybe, the reason those MMOs were so obscure was because no one played them due to the amount of griefers in those games?


Yeah, it is. I place a certain value on my time and relationships with others, even though it's not strictly monetary. For example, my marriage is worth more to me than any game, and so I spend a significantly greater amount of time with my wife than I do in front of the PC. An MMO subscription puts a real monetary value on my time, which gets devalued the less I play, hence my feeling of obligation. But am I willing to strain my relationships for the sake of a game? Hell no.

Fair enough, I understand where you are coming from.  I never said MMOs are for everyone and I'd never advocate that anyone choose anything, video games or otherwise, over their family and friends.  Video games (MMOs or otherwise) are supposed to be a fun pass time that you do to relax and have fun.  If it's not fun, don't play it.  My only argument is, if you think it might be something you are interested in, don't prejudge it before you actually see the product.  But I think in your case you wouldn't be interested, so it's a moot point.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:04:00 am by Mad Cat » Logged
Admiral Zeratul
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2010, 09:01:55 am »

You said your tolerance for BS was low, but I think you grossly underestimate just how low it is if very rare occurrences of trolls and spambots are enough to send you into a rage.  If that is really the case, I think you're more in danger of being "nuts" than I am.
You might be surprised at how much damage just a few individuals can inflict upon a community. Some of them are very persistent. As always, one's experience will vary. Human interaction is a chaotic and unpredictable thing. It is therefore impractical to gauge the amount of BS you'll receive.

Remember, I'm talking about setting up a triple-A StarCon MMO with full features and support, not a SC2 re-skin of Maple Story.
Details, details... The entire topic has been and remains speculation. Whether you are talking about a state-of-the-art powerhouse or a collection of old refurbished game servers in a shack, we are not any more likely to see it built.

Like I said: you get what you pay for.
I am an advocate for free softwares. Sure, there are a few botched jobs here and there, but there is a treasure to be had in many of them. You cannot possibly tell me that there aren't just as many mess-ups and low quality junk among the commercial brands. Price does not reflect value.

OR, you could go for a walk, for free, in a nice neighbourhood. Smiley
You miss the point. Not only that, but you sound like a complete dolt while doing so.


Personally, I prefer to have the game environment all to myself. I dislike sharing.
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Mad Cat
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2010, 12:37:23 pm »

You might be surprised at how much damage just a few individuals can inflict upon a community. Some of them are very persistent. As always, one's experience will vary. Human interaction is a chaotic and unpredictable thing. It is therefore impractical to gauge the amount of BS you'll receive.

Human interaction is only chaotic in mental hospitals and certain parts of the Internet.


I am an advocate for free softwares. Sure, there are a few botched jobs here and there, but there is a treasure to be had in many of them. You cannot possibly tell me that there aren't just as many mess-ups and low quality junk among the commercial brands. Price does not reflect value.

No, but the money to support the features and services that are available in MMOs come from somewhere, and it's not from the sale of the original product.


You miss the point. Not only that, but you sound like a complete dolt while doing so.

Since I made the analogy I'm quite sure I got the point.  But if you feel otherwise, do tell.  Or did you think throwing insults my way would somehow enlighten me?


Personally, I prefer to have the game environment all to myself. I dislike sharing.

Well, at least you're honest...
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storyyeller
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2010, 04:27:32 pm »

Runescape does use a subscription model. I'm not sure what you;re talking about.
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Draxas
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2010, 05:25:02 pm »

I had a very long post composed here, and then my browser decided to make all that typing void by closing itself. Suffice to say, I'm sick of this topic again, and so additional commentary will not be terribly verbose until someone new joins the discussion.

Let me just say this, though: If you have a subscription model, your game may have fewer griefers and other trouble, but it will be prohibitively expensive. If you have a microtransaction model, the game is essentially free to play and you're opening the floodgates. You can't argue it both ways, because that's not how it works.

Also, Mad Cat, you wasted $75 not playing WoW for the last 5 months, which hurts my brain just to think about. I value my money far too much to do something like that.

Additionally, your walking analogy is a failure, as Zeratul stated. See my above remark about subscription vs. free-to-play.

The rest is just semantics, which I'm no longer in the mood for thanks to IE's shennanigans.
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Mad Cat
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #82 on: September 29, 2010, 04:59:53 am »

I had a very long post composed here, and then my browser decided to make all that typing void by closing itself. Suffice to say, I'm sick of this topic again, and so additional commentary will not be terribly verbose until someone new joins the discussion.

I hate it when that happens.  As such, I've taken to saving really long posts in temporary text files.

Also, I stopped using IE.  That piece of shit crashes on every other website.


Let me just say this, though: If you have a subscription model, your game may have fewer griefers and other trouble, but it will be prohibitively expensive. If you have a microtransaction model, the game is essentially free to play and you're opening the floodgates. You can't argue it both ways, because that's not how it works.

That's only the core of the argument.  Different games have different target audiences.  Who do you think are the biggest griefers and tards in MMOs?  They're kids, not adults like you and I.  If you play an MMO aimed at little children, you shouldn't complain that you get griefed.  Look at EVE Online - it's a subscription based MMO, but the culture of the game is very cut throat.  This is done on purpose as the devs are catering to a more "hardcore" gaming crowd than MMOs like WoW, which caters to a very different crowd than MMOs like Maple Story.

So the business model will make a difference on what types of gamers the MMO attract, but it won't make ALL the difference.


Also, Mad Cat, you wasted $75 not playing WoW for the last 5 months, which hurts my brain just to think about. I value my money far too much to do something like that.

I did no such thing.  Over the past 5 months I paid $0 on my subscription and likewise played 0 hours of WoW.

My gym membership, on the other hand... Sad


Additionally, your walking analogy is a failure, as Zeratul stated. See my above remark about subscription vs. free-to-play.

Simply stating "your analogy is a failure" doesn't make it such, and is often the sign of someone who either doesn't understand the point being made or doesn't want to understand the point being made.  Or doesn't care.

The point of my walking analogy was that you cannot fault the act of walking just because you got robbed.  You didn't robbed because you were walking, you got robbed because you went walking in a bad neighbourhood.

Likewise, you had a bad experience with MMOs not because MMOs are crap and are full of griefers and tards, but because you played the ones that were full of griefers and tards.

If you go walking in the nice neighbourhood, you're less likely to get robbed.  If you play (free-to-play) MMOs that don't cater to greifers and such, like DDO or LotRO, you're less likely to have to deal with them.
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ziper1221
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Re: Star Control MMO: Good idea or bad?
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2010, 01:13:00 am »

Likewise, you had a bad experience with MMOs not because MMOs are crap and are full of griefers and tards, but because you played the ones that were full of griefers and tards.

If you go walking in the nice neighbourhood, you're less likely to get robbed.  If you play (free-to-play) MMOs that don't cater to greifers and such, like DDO or LotRO, you're less likely to have to deal with them.

What ever you play, I will find you and grief you.
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