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Author Topic: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux  (Read 17759 times)
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2008, 01:18:35 am »

I think explanation 2 is definitely true, at least in respect to the Sa-Matra itself. They didn't use it for a very long time indeed. The only real issue is that it doesn't really explain why the shield generators are on the outside.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2008, 02:50:12 pm »

Actually I think that, though it's very far-fetched, one might say that making the defenses breakable (by placing the generators on the outside) represents a form of "not using overwhelming force". It's like an "escape avenue" to make the fight more fair. But I've just figured out another, much more likely explanation (and one which doesn't assume any new entities):

Explanation 5. Since "It is part of the ritual of the Doctrinal Conflict (sort of like wrapping a present) to temporarily deactivate the Sa-Matra (the Great Trophy).", the shield&generators&asteroid-shell combo would be the wrapping of the present. They are not meant to protect the Sa-Matra. (After all, if it was for defense, they could've just covered the whole thing in the almost-impenetrable asteroid shell, as obviously the Sa-Matra is able to blast it apart, and obviously even in the current configuration the Sa-Matra is still required to blast it apart when it leaves its "cocoon" - the shielded hole is not large enough.) They are more of a decoration, carrying who-knows-what significance for the Ur-Quan. (Also remember the ring of Dreadnoughts and Marauders around Delta Crateris V. That one seems quite ceremonial, not so much defensive, too: remember the way the ring is mostly composed of whoever owns the Sa-Matra at the current time - Kzer-Za normally, Kohr-Ah after they win the Doctrinal Conflict -, but four battle groups of the other subspecies are placed in the corners of a square inscribed in the circle?

And the sentinels and comets, if they don't have a ceremonial role too, are probably meant to prevent the ring of guardians (and anyone else) from being tempted to hijack the Sa-Matra and appoint themselves Rulers of the Galaxy.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 08:23:08 pm by Valaggar Redux » Logged
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2008, 08:19:48 am »

That is a very convincing argument. Couldn't have said it better myself.

My input: (as per original argument regarding shields) The shield generators ARE protected by shields themselves if you look closely enough.

As seen here:


Therefore, they ARE protected entirely from small weapons fire (like an Ur-Quan's auto-fighters), and it would then be pointless to have them inside. And considering powerful devices and whatnot; you don't want to cook the Sa-Matra with shield generators acting as a microwave.

Another thing I noticed... Though it seems the booger bouncers and fireballs are coming OUT of the Sa-Matra, who's to say that the weapons (due to a 2-dimensional view probably preventing us from seeing them) aren't powered by the shield generators, or that the generators aren't weapons themselves or are just plain generators for the defensive weapons (including the doorway to it)?

Considering things, are the defenses in fact not being fired by the Sa-Matra itself? That can explain, aside from the huge-ass asteroid shield, why the ship itself doesn't own you in the first second of battling, and also why the attack/defense stops after you destroy the last generator, and the last booger/fireball.

Toss in the 3DO ending, the Sa-Matra uses on board defenses instead of the earlier defenses. And, probably due to Dynarri, is still incapable of movement and/or use of the primary weapon(s).

Furthermore, imagine how much crazier the ending could've gotten if after destroying the shield generators, things go all Final Fantasy, and you face the ship itself in it's raw "legendary" power. Well, so much for the Utwig/Chmmr bomb, and survival.

The final assault had to be a surprise attack, with the help of Dynarri doing his job distracting/confusing the fleets/crews, sans guardians. Thus supporting the 2nd explanation of why the Sa-Matra doesn't use it's primary weapon nor moves from it's position, provided by Valaggar Redux.




Off-topic Side note: That always bothered me about Timewarp (while it was still being updated). When you select the Sa-Matra, you can't actually use it's assumed main weapon, nor can you move, or anything but use the defenses.

Excuse the mini-rant.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2008, 11:59:53 am »

I know this is an old thread, so sorry for resurrecting it, but it seems an obvious explanation has been left out: Since the Sa-Matra is not psychically shielded, who's to say that the Ur-Quan on board (presumably it is crewed and not just remote controlled) were not being manipulated by the Dnyarri to remain idle while you attacked?
The green blobs and fireballs could be explained away as an automated defense system that fires no matter what at unknown objects (ships that do not respond to standard hierarchy identification) that aren't permitted within a certain radius. The bigger, mega-destructive and long range weapons might require manual activation to actually use.

Another possible explanation of why the shield generators are external might be that it's more secure for logistics: fuel resupply can occur externally without exposing the Sa-Matra inside to potential sabotage by lowering the shield to resupply, ensuring it is constantly protected.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the weapons stop firing once all the generators are destroyed? If you consider the fireball/green blob weapons to be part of a defense system other than the Sa-Matra's own (i.e. automated), this coincides with the Dnyarri temporarily mesmerizing the crew of the Sa-Matra, rendering it vulnerable.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2008, 05:42:07 pm »

One thing I always wandered about is why , if you have overwhelmed and defeated the enemy , the Sa-Matra wasn't captured and used against the Ur-Quan fleets ?
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2008, 06:10:16 pm »

story wise...we are the good guy we don't rule by fear...On a more logical aspect...take de sa matra and you have the ur-quan AND the kohr-ah that allie themselve against you ...just for the sake of taking back what is theirs... and I frankly do not think that the new alliance could have won this war in a straight war thinking manner. Only by asymetric war of attricion not in a classical clash even tho they have the sa-matra
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2008, 09:16:30 pm »

And how exactly would it be taken? The Sa-Matra is many times larger than the flagship and presumably has a proportionally larger crew. Furthermore, although the guardian fleet was distracted by the dynarri, it will return when the dynarri exhausts itself -- probably sooner than later. You would be left with an under-crewed flagship and a huge melee going on inside the Sa-Matra. Not a good position to be in when the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah fleet returns.

Better to blow it up I say.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2008, 10:18:34 pm »

If the Sa-Matra is even crewed, the crew sure aren't doing much - presumably disabled by the Dnyarri.

My theory is this: The heroes could take over the Sa-Matra, but they wouldn't be able to operate it - at least  not without doing work or research that would take much more time than they have available.

Ships can't be piloted except by the race that built them, right? Funny - the prekkies built the Sa-Matra, but the Ur-Quan have been flying it. How? Maybe they've built adapters that let an Ur-Quan fly it (albeit clumsily.) In that case, it would be impossible for anyone in Zelnick's fleet to do so.

Questions like "Hey, they've got a Dnyarri! Why don't they grab an Ur-Quan and force it to fly for them" are where the "heroes" excuse is reasonable. Also, Zelnick was looking for an excuse to blow up the Dnyarri...
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2008, 10:32:51 pm »

The goal was to save the universe and free the Earth, not to unite the Ur-Quan against you.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2008, 11:27:11 pm »

The goal was to save the universe and free the Earth, not to unite the Ur-Quan against you.

...and, let's see, blowing up their best ship and attacking with a giant army doesn't unite them against you?

I'd think that having a ship that could maul them all without taking significant losses could possibly help keep your team safe, don't you?
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2008, 12:06:02 am »

Proposal for taking over the Sa-Matra:

[Dnyarri]: (To Ur-Quan:) <<STOP USING YOUR TERMINAL. KINDLY WRITE DOWN ALL THE ROOT PASSWORDS TO YOUR SHIP. PRINT OUT THE USER MANUAL AND LEAVE IT ON THE BRIDGE.>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."
[Dnyarri]: <<NOW OPEN YOUR DOCKING PORT FOR US.>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."
[Dnyarri]: <<NOW GO TAKE A TRIP OUT OF THE AIRLOCK AND THINK OF PRETTY FLOWERS>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."

----
    Also, I think a good idea for an SC3 sequel is to have the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah fleets, instead of falling into disarray after the Sa-Matra is destroyed and getting overrun easily by the Chmmr, instead unite and pose an even greater menace to the known galaxy, re-conquering slave races and generally ****ing *hit up for everyone. New doctrine, anyone?
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2008, 12:50:39 am »

I think that destroying the sa-matra...put FEAR inside the ur-quan and the korh-ah...what made them Better,greater, more powerfull...THE most feared ship in the quadrant , THE most powerfull one THE ONE...is destroyed... They were STUNNED by that. They felt powerless...so I don't think that the reaction would be to be pissed at us and to unite with korh ha.... they woud crumble on their knee (in a manner of speaking I am not even sure if they have a knee) and just ...I don't know saying HOW HOW CAN THIS BE POSSIBLE!

that would be what I think made the chmmr break in and kick their butt afterward!
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2008, 08:58:49 am »

The goal was to save the universe and free the Earth, not to unite the Ur-Quan against you.
...and, let's see, blowing up their best ship and attacking with a giant army doesn't unite them against you?

I'd think that having a ship that could maul them all without taking significant losses could possibly help keep your team safe, don't you?
It's a big universe, and the Sa-Matra can only be in one place at a time. The Sa-Matra has a central role in the Ur-Quan's culture; it was a major part of the reason why they were fighting eachother. If that reason falls away, disarray is not unlikely.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2008, 11:53:14 am »

It's a big universe, and the Sa-Matra can only be in one place at a time.

I think it's important to remember that the Ur-Quan aren't native to the region as well. The Sa-Matra worked fine on the Chenjesu and M:bots, because they were defending their settled worlds and facilities against an unstoppable force. The Ur-Quan don't have any homeworld in this quadrant though, and taking their nomadic way of life into account it seems likely that they haven't invested that much in infrastructure that can't be moved. If they were attacked by the Sa-Matra they'd have the option of regrouping and going around it. Sure it's not idfeal, and it'd make their Thralls harder to handle. But it also means that unless the Sa-Matra can catch up with their fleet, it can't really blow them apart. and they can always lay waste to the worlds of whoever is navigating it.

Quote
The Sa-Matra has a central role in the Ur-Quan's culture; it was a major part of the reason why they were fighting eachother. If that reason falls away, disarray is not unlikely.

I'm not so sure. The Sa-Matra was a "Great Trophy", but it didn't actually matter to them beyond the fact that whoever proved their doctrine successful would be allowed to use it to speed up the fulfillment of it. It's a symbol, and a powerful one. But not something that their success hinged on. The Kohr-Ah have never even used it, and the Kzer-Za only used it to finish up business once they noticed the Kohr-Ah were close by.

Since neither side controls the Sa-Matra anymore, they'll have to figure out a new way to prove who is right. Unless the fact that subjugated slave races destroyed it already tipped the balance in the favour of the Kohr-Ah. After the initial disarray and confusion when the Chmmr appear I'd figure they'd regroup and keep on fighting.
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Re: Precursor Battleship wisdom by Valaggar Redux
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2008, 07:48:10 pm »

Quote
The Sa-Matra has a central role in the Ur-Quan's culture; it was a major part of the reason why they were fighting eachother. If that reason falls away, disarray is not unlikely.

I'm not so sure. The Sa-Matra was a "Great Trophy", but it didn't actually matter to them beyond the fact that whoever proved their doctrine successful would be allowed to use it to speed up the fulfillment of it. It's a symbol, and a powerful one. But not something that their success hinged on.

Ok, I admit that argument was a stretch. Another attempt:
"They managed to destroy our big heavilly guarded symbol of our supremacy in the middle of our territory! We must be doing something wrong! Impeach the Primat!" vs. "They're getting away with the big trophy! Get them!".
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