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Author Topic: Anarchist Communism  (Read 14828 times)
ziper1221
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2010, 11:18:54 pm »

Just because the regimes in charge of North Korea, Cuba, and China haven't collapsed, doesn't necessarily mean they're "best" for the country. In fact, I'd say they're a far cry from it in all 3 cases.
Cuba is/was a terrible country for most people. I personally know people who traveled ~120 miles on a raft to escape Castro after he tried to kill the family.
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Angelfish
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2010, 12:01:03 am »

Just because the regimes in charge of North Korea, Cuba, and China haven't collapsed, doesn't necessarily mean they're "best" for the country. In fact, I'd say they're a far cry from it in all 3 cases.
Cuba is/was a terrible country for most people. I personally know people who traveled ~120 miles on a raft to escape Castro after he tried to kill the family.

Ofcourse the country is terrible for the people.. but we weren't talking about what's best for the people Wink.
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Admiral Zeratul
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2010, 01:18:12 am »

Cuba is/was a terrible country for most people. I personally know people who traveled ~120 miles on a raft to escape Castro after he tried to kill the family.

Ofcourse the country is terrible for the people.. but we weren't talking about what's best for the people Wink.

I honestly don't think anything else is really significant.
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Angelfish
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2010, 08:14:15 am »

Cuba is/was a terrible country for most people. I personally know people who traveled ~120 miles on a raft to escape Castro after he tried to kill the family.

Ofcourse the country is terrible for the people.. but we weren't talking about what's best for the people Wink.

I honestly don't think anything else is really significant.

Ofcourse not. People by themselves can't look at 'the bigger picture', what's best for the country. People can only think for themselves, what's best for them personally.
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Lukipela
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2010, 08:14:58 am »

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People today do "work" so they can get money to buy food. People would contribute to food production to ensure that they get food. It's not really that unstable.

I think there is a key difference here though. In our current system, whatever you do you have a certain power over your available resources. Simplified, if you’re a farmer you have a list that you can tick off for what you’ll need to buy during the following year, and you know how much you have to buy it with. But in the system you’re describing, all I have is a list. Then I just have to hope that some community somewhere happens to be producing this thing, and that they haven’t already given their surplus away. And if I understand things correctly, I can’t even incite them with food, because that makes it a bartering economy instead. So if the tractor repairing community close by disbands, I best hope that someone further away from my home is doing the same and is willing to take time out to come look at my tractor even though they aren’t dependent on my food. Just missing one of a long list of critical things will ruin my crops and leave people hungry. And it snowballs from there.

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People have an interest in surviving, and they have an interest in having electricity.

You keep repeating this like it means that everything we have an interest in, we can do. Wanting to do something and being able to do it are two completely different things. If there are no trained nuclear engineers in your part of the country, that plant will stop irregardless. And here’s a little secret. There are many necessary jobs out there that are tedious, boring and mind-numbing. Given a chance, people will switch over to being something else, even if they are no good at that either. And when people are needed In those jobs, everyone is going to say “Why me? There are plenty of other ex-engineers, one of them, should do it”. Or janitors, or manual labourers, or whatever.

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Where did I say there would be no law?

Well, you did state that there is no organization on top. I guess every group can vote to have their own laws and enforce them within the group, but that’s not the same as laws. And if the group votes do something another group disapproves of, what are you going to do? Unless you have a voluntary judiciary, a voluntary prison system and a voluntary police force. But in that case, why would the people in the voluntary police force take orders from anyone else? They are the guys with the guns.

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When did I say there would be no organization? I seem to remember stating specifically that no leaders is not synonymous with no organization.

Again, you stated that there is no organization on top, these are all independent groups. There’s no reason for a group in Iowa to follow the regulations put forth by a group in California. Your “regulation” is pretty much the same as your “law”, something a group of people votes on and accepts as a rule. That doesn’t bind any other group to it though. Don’t like that my cotton producing group uses back people as slave labour? Don’t like that our janitor group thinks that “bacteria” are a scientific piece of propaganda against God? Don’t like that in our Nuclear plant group, feelings are as important as numbers? Well those are the rules we voted on and if you don’t like them I guess you can just leave. You get to feel smug later when a lot of people die, but that hardly helps.

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That's because they are being forced to work, which is something they don't like.

Are you actually saying that people underperform at work because it is something they need to do to survive, but if they don’t get paid but the job still needs to be done in order for them to survive they’ll become wonderfully motivated to do it? Less freedom equals more meaning?

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Ever heard of "word of mouth"?

You mean rumour? Yeah, sure. I hear farmer Bob is really hoarding all that food for himself, let’s go look in his basement! Seriously, even if there is an anarchist press around, how do I know that they aren’t being given food by farmer Bob to write what he wants me to think?  It’s not like there is any authority that will punish them for publishing false information. For all I know their “law” is “We write whatever gives us potatoes”.

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As a race, we tend to take the way that we feel benefits us most. I think that, to most people, prosperity seems like a beneficial thing.

This was replied to already, but what benefits me or even my family most is not what benefits us as a race most.

As an aside, I notice you skipped quite a few points, I’ll just assume you concede those.

Also, an interesting thought. That Free Territory and the Spanish one was pretty interesting, but they seemed like ethnically and culturally pretty homogenous groups. Is there any record of this being tried where people have different religions, cultures and social norms?
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2010, 12:42:07 pm »

Are you actually saying that people underperform at work because it is something they need to do to survive, but if they don’t get paid but the job still needs to be done in order for them to survive they’ll become wonderfully motivated to do it? Less freedom equals more meaning?

No. Actually, I think people will be more motivated when they want to do it, i.e. someone who loves the outdoors running a farm.

You mean rumour? Yeah, sure. I hear farmer Bob is really hoarding all that food for himself, let’s go look in his basement! Seriously, even if there is an anarchist press around, how do I know that they aren’t being given food by farmer Bob to write what he wants me to think?  It’s not like there is any authority that will punish them for publishing false information. For all I know their “law” is “We write whatever gives us potatoes”.

That would be completely pointless, because the publishers could not get any better access to the farmer's food (legally, at least). They might as well publish the truth.

As an aside, I notice you skipped quite a few points, I’ll just assume you concede those.

Not necessarily, but I don't have an answer for them right now. I'm definitely not a politician and I'm no good at debating or researching, so if you try debating someone better at it than me... don't get your hopes up. Wink
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Draxas
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2010, 04:23:54 pm »

No. Actually, I think people will be more motivated when they want to do it, i.e. someone who loves the outdoors running a farm.

Who loves to do this? It's difficult, labor intensive, back-breaking work to run a subsistence farm, let alone one that can feed an entire region. Why would people be motivated to produce more than they and their family need to survive? Most of the folks who "love running a farm" nowadays are so enormously wealthy from other channels that they can treat it as a diversion and a hobby to subsistence farm. I doubt that most of the folks who work on the huge, modern, industrial-style farms that produce most of our food really love what they do, nor would be able to run such an operation without leadership.

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That would be completely pointless, because the publishers could not get any better access to the farmer's food (legally, at least). They might as well publish the truth.

Legally what? Who is making these laws you keep mentioning? Why wouldn't they publish lies, if it benefitted them? Who is going to stop them? People who love policing others? What makes those "police" any different from gangsters, enforcing their personal code via the business end of a gun?

Just because the regimes in charge of North Korea, Cuba, and China haven't collapsed, doesn't necessarily mean they're "best" for the country. In fact, I'd say they're a far cry from it in all 3 cases.
Cuba is/was a terrible country for most people. I personally know people who traveled ~120 miles on a raft to escape Castro after he tried to kill the family.

Ofcourse the country is terrible for the people.. but we weren't talking about what's best for the people Wink.

What purpose does government have if not to represent the people? A nation cannot exist without its people. A governement without the support of its people can only enforce its will through fear and force, and will eventually fall because of that; people won't stand for those conditions indefinitely. This is why the most totalitarian regimes have to deal with the most violent uprisings.
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Lukipela
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2010, 09:52:56 pm »

No. Actually, I think people will be more motivated when they want to do it, i.e. someone who loves the outdoors running a farm.

And we're back to the two things I mentioned earlier. First off, there are a lot of very important jobs out there that aren't super inspiring and something you love with the very core of your being.  I'd guess you'd suddenly see a lot more poets, writers and other jobs like that, the stuff people dream of doing now. And maybe some physical jobs like park ranger or builder. But other professions will be sucked dry. Not just the really sucky jobs that can't be replaced by machines right now, but also some of the okay to nice jobs that consist of pushing paper back and forth and going to meetings all day. And secondly, not everyone wants to do all that much.

That brings an interesting point up actually. I think we've established that there are people around who are ostracised right now for being lazy at work and getting "unfair" compensation. in your system, you think this would not happen, although it's not clear to me why. But can you always even be sure? I mean, I sit in meetings for several hours a day. i coordinate a lot of small projects, but I do very little hands on work in most of them. I'm sort of a human databank for this stuff, since I've been involved in every project on some level. But that's pretty hard to measure. I could just sit in those meetings and ignore everything said. I could get away with always just referring questions onwards to the next person. How would anyone know when I cross the point from working to slacking off? There are a lot of jobs like this out there, where your coordinator or management guy might be lazy, or just not good at what he does. How do you determine if he is to be ostracised or pitied?

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That would be completely pointless, because the publishers could not get any better access to the farmer's food (legally, at least). They might as well publish the truth.

I'm confused because I wrote a whole bunch on law in my last reply that you seem to have skipped, and yet you still claim that there is some form of law here. Can you please explain how this all encompassing law works without any overlaying oganization? I mean sure, I accept that the groups will be able to govern their own somehow, but how do you force several groups to conform to these laws? Isn't that completely the opposite of what you've been saying before?

Not necessarily, but I don't have an answer for them right now. I'm definitely not a politician and I'm no good at debating or researching, so if you try debating someone better at it than me... don't get your hopes up. Wink

I'm not a debater either, my main interest here is to understand how your system works. In my opinion, I'm asking some pretty simple questions and pointing out some valid real world situations that I think might negatively impact the function of your system. But that doesn't mean I assume I'm right. If there are clear logical answers and good reasons for this work, I'd love to hear them. If there are some newer experiments with this on any scale I'd be interested in reading about them. If you want to point me in the direction of some FAQ on this stuff that you think is good I'd love to read it. It just seems to me that if you wholeheartedly believe in this system, you should be able to reply to my questions and at least give me some insight on where you disagree. Otherwise you'll run into trouble as soon as you try to make this real.

Also, i've replied to all your points. If you're not going to do the same, it'd be polite to let me know beforehand  Tongue
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Alvarin
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 10:21:08 pm »

As mentioned before, Kibbutz movement was pretty close to Communist ideals. Not Anarchistic, though. And it worked for some time pretty effectively, despite hostile environment, both physical and national. You might want to read about in on Wikipedia.
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2010, 10:53:20 pm »

What purpose does government have if not to represent the people? A nation cannot exist without its people. A governement without the support of its people can only enforce its will through fear and force, and will eventually fall because of that; people won't stand for those conditions indefinitely. This is why the most totalitarian regimes have to deal with the most violent uprisings.

As an anarchist, I oppose an Authoritarian state, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Just look at every empire that has existed throughout history. Most of them fell as a result of being too spread-out, being conquered by a more powerful empire, or otherwise from bad leadership, not as a result of angry citizens. Propoganda, nationalism, and religion have historically always been effective at keeping citizens in check.

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I'm confused because I wrote a whole bunch on law in my last reply that you seem to have skipped, and yet you still claim that there is some form of law here. Can you please explain how this all encompassing law works without any overlaying oganization? I mean sure, I accept that the groups will be able to govern their own somehow, but how do you force several groups to conform to these laws? Isn't that completely the opposite of what you've been saying before?

...

I'm not a debater either, my main interest here is to understand how your system works. In my opinion, I'm asking some pretty simple questions and pointing out some valid real world situations that I think might negatively impact the function of your system. But that doesn't mean I assume I'm right. If there are clear logical answers and good reasons for this work, I'd love to hear them. If there are some newer experiments with this on any scale I'd be interested in reading about them. If you want to point me in the direction of some FAQ on this stuff that you think is good I'd love to read it. It just seems to me that if you wholeheartedly believe in this system, you should be able to reply to my questions and at least give me some insight on where you disagree. Otherwise you'll run into trouble as soon as you try to make this real.

Also, i've replied to all your points. If you're not going to do the same, it'd be polite to let me know beforehand  Tongue

I'm not fully responding because I don't have an answer. This just means that I would like to first see what another Anarcho-Communist says at some point in the future, and then reconsider my position. You can take my lack of response as a victory, I suppose; it can mean that you're right and I will eventually agree with you (for the most part, changing my position to a less Libertarian view), or it can mean that I will still disagree and will have a much more refined answer. This will probably not be for a LOOOOOONG time (i.e. several months), however, because 8 hours of my day are pre-scheduled for school, and I would rather spend my free time working on games and playing games.

Also, I should mention that I have no intention of trying to make this real, although I do have intention of promoting a gift economy within our capitalist economy mostly by developing open source software.

As for pointing you to an FAQ, I don't know of one as of now, so your research is as good as mine. There is, however, an interesting YouTube user who I have been subscribed to for a long time, TheElMoIsEviL. He identifies as a left Libertarian, and his political beliefs are very similar to mine (in fact, I would say I partially drew many of my ideas from him).
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2010, 01:37:21 am »

Those 50 million you mention are grossly exaggerated. Actual estimates vary between 20 and 45 million.
And just look at China now. I am guessing that their economy, society and culture are still intact despite those millions of dead people.
The 3 gorges dam as an example, wouldn't be possible in any democratic country. Waay too much red tape.
Are you sure there aren't similar projects in other countries?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_world

America put a man on the moon working together as a democracy, who knows what China could do as one.
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Lukipela
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2010, 08:42:27 am »

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I'm not fully responding because I don't have an answer. This just means that I would like to first see what another Anarcho-Communist says at some point in the future, and then reconsider my position. You can take my lack of response as a victory, I suppose; it can mean that you're right and I will eventually agree with you (for the most part, changing my position to a less Libertarian view), or it can mean that I will still disagree and will have a much more refined answer.

I don’t really see debates as contests to be honest. I think the important part is that they get all involved parties thinking about the issues brought up, which in my opinion leads to better insight. For instance, you started this debate off saying that you were a Anarchist Communist and giving every indication that you knew how the system worked and approved of it. Here, at the end of the debate you’ve apparently drawn the conclusion that you need to think more about how this works, and presumably you will be looking at it from new angles. On my part, I started off thinking that this couldn’t possibly work. But I’ve learned about the Free Republic and the Spanish territories, something I wasn’t aware had ever existed,  and will be doing some reading on that. So if anything, I think we both come out winners.

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This will probably not be for a LOOOOOONG time (i.e. several months), however, because 8 hours of my day are pre-scheduled for school, and I would rather spend my free time working on games and playing games.

I’m sure it isn’t your intention, but I’d be careful with your wording here. Coupled with the last message, it kind of gives me  a “well I have a life you know I haven’t got time for your silly internet debates. I might be back, but don’t desperately hope for it because I know you have nothing better to do” vibe. Keep in mind that you’re the one who brought this up and wanted to talk about it. In a similar fashion I could say “Good luck with learning, do post back if you manage to work out how your system functions but don’t count too much on me replying because I have a job, a family, a lot of social activities and when I’m on the internet I prefer to do useful stuff instead of talking to people who believe in half-formed concepts”.  See my point?

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Also, I should mention that I have no intention of trying to make this real, although I do have intention of promoting a gift economy within our capitalist economy mostly by developing open source software.

Fair enough, though you probably shouldn’t be calling yourself an Anarchist Communist then, more like someone with an interest in it.

Quote
As for pointing you to an FAQ, I don't know of one as of now, so your research is as good as mine. There is, however, an interesting YouTube user who I have been subscribed to for a long time, TheElMoIsEviL. He identifies as a left Libertarian, and his political beliefs are very similar to mine (in fact, I would say I partially drew many of my ideas from him).

Cool, I’ll check it out. Cheers.

Alvarin: My sister worked at Rosh Hanikra when she was young and I visited it. Nice place. There were Kibbutzes in Spain after the war as well IIRC, but I always saw it as more of a PR system than anything else.
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2010, 12:27:44 pm »

I’m sure it isn’t your intention, but I’d be careful with your wording here. Coupled with the last message, it kind of gives me  a “well I have a life you know I haven’t got time for your silly internet debates. I might be back, but don’t desperately hope for it because I know you have nothing better to do” vibe. Keep in mind that you’re the one who brought this up and wanted to talk about it. In a similar fashion I could say “Good luck with learning, do post back if you manage to work out how your system functions but don’t count too much on me replying because I have a job, a family, a lot of social activities and when I’m on the internet I prefer to do useful stuff instead of talking to people who believe in half-formed concepts”.  See my point?

No, no, that's not what I meant at all. I'm just informing you ahead of time that I probably won't be returning to this debate, because by the time I have looked into what I want to look into, this topic will most likely be dead. This was in no way intended to imply that I have "more of a life" than you (which, frankly, I think is a silly claim for anyone to make).

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Fair enough, though you probably shouldn’t be calling yourself an Anarchist Communist then, more like someone with an interest in it.

Well, right now, I'm hovering between Libertarian Socialist, Anarcho-Communist, and some kind of Libertarian (but not stateless) Communist. I'll find out later as I said. Wink
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Angelfish
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2010, 10:07:20 pm »

Those 50 million you mention are grossly exaggerated. Actual estimates vary between 20 and 45 million.
And just look at China now. I am guessing that their economy, society and culture are still intact despite those millions of dead people.
The 3 gorges dam as an example, wouldn't be possible in any democratic country. Waay too much red tape.
Are you sure there aren't similar projects in other countries?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_world

America put a man on the moon working together as a democracy, who knows what China could do as one.

Millions of people had to be relocated for the 3 gorges dam. This massive relocating wouldn't be possible in any other country.
You will see China's supremacy rise in the next 20 years, they will surpass all that we will achieve.
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Angelfish
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Re: Anarchist Communism
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2010, 10:09:46 pm »

What purpose does government have if not to represent the people? A nation cannot exist without its people. A governement without the support of its people can only enforce its will through fear and force, and will eventually fall because of that; people won't stand for those conditions indefinitely. This is why the most totalitarian regimes have to deal with the most violent uprisings.

And do you really think that the Chinese people don't support this government? I don't see massive and violent uprisings, yet I see megastrikes going on on democratic countries like France and Greece.
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