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Topic: UN no longer against execution of homosexuals (Read 14069 times)
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Angelfish
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That's nice to hear.
Also nice to hear is that the USA recently signed a proposition to scrap the Don't ask, Don't tell rule in the US Army.
But what infuriates me is that a month ago same-sex marriage was outlawed in California. WTF, USA?!
http://www.noh8campaign.com/article/about
A country which treats certain minority groups as some kind of untermensch is not worthy of my respect, i'm sorry.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Check the date. That was two years and a month ago. That resolution was recently found to have been procedurally invalid, and it is unlikely to last much longer.
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Alvarin
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Are Roma the same nation as Gypsy, or these are different people? Wikipedia wasn't very useful in this question...
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onpon4
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Sharing is good.
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You know, I realise Wikipedia may not be as reliable a source as some random schmuck on Youtube that you stumbled across, but hopefully you'll have oversight with me providing an article with loads of sources and written words instead of just the random vocalized opinions opinion of someone with access to youtube. Or you could check Amnesty. Or the European commission against racism and intolerance. Or the European Working Conditions Observatory. Sorry they don't have a video feed that makes them as reputable as a Romanian youtube user, but hopefully they'll give some insight. Another worthwhile though is that perhaps gays aren't discriminated against at all in the US because I saw this guy on youtube who claims to think of them "like anyone else man, peace!". Clearly Angelfish is mistaken in assuming that there might be anti gay groups in your country..
Gee, did I offend you or something? If so, sorry. I was just pointing out that someone Romanian seemed to disagree with you, I wasn't saying she was more reliable than whatever your sources were. Heck, I had no idea you even had sources. There's really no way to tell (unless you mention explicitly) whether you're speaking from research or personal experience, but I assumed personal experience since you seemed to be talking mostly about an area you live in, and you were also using pretty generic language ("treated like crap"). It seemed quite comparable to how some people over here will talk about what Muslims, gays, Mexicans, etc are like based on stereotypes, as if the stereotypes are fact.
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 10:46:33 am by Lukipela »
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Lukipela
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The Ancient One
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A stereotype is generally a negative attribute assigned to a group. Italians are stupid, greeks are lazy, brits smell and have weird teeth, poles are thick and so forth. If someone in your corner of the world goes around saying "Gays are treated like crap", would you immediately assume that it's a stereotype and that gays have it pretty good based on a video by some guy in Arkansas?
And there is a very simple way to tell. If I'm speaking from experience, I will say things like "In my experience", "in my opinion" and "as far as I know". If I don't, there's generally more evidence behind it than just wild hearsay.
And I was being heavily ironic when replying, because as I may have mentioned earlier, I don't think you should be linking youtube users "whatever" to illustrate whatever you are talking about. We all know how to read, and when it comes to big important issues there is generally a wealth of text from different sources that we can peruse, rather than having to sit and listen to someone who got their opinion from god knows where tell us how they think things work. Case in hand, listening to someone from a country where racism is pretty common telling you who they have no racism instead of just googling "racism against roma" (which is what I did to counter your link) and reading texts from a somewhat reliable source.
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What's up doc?
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onpon4
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A stereotype is generally a negative attribute assigned to a group. Italians are stupid, greeks are lazy, brits smell and have weird teeth, poles are thick and so forth. If someone in your corner of the world goes around saying "Gays are treated like crap", would you immediately assume that it's a stereotype and that gays have it pretty good based on a video by some guy in Arkansas?
Well, the "stereotype" I was talking about is that Romanians treat gypsies like crap, which is exactly what you said. Actually, one of the articles you linked to (the Wikipedia one) actually says something different, that Central and Eastern Europeans don't treat Romanies fairly. The problem is you were pointing to a very specific group and saying that they treat another group like crap. It would not be like saying "gays are treated like crap", but more like "Americans treat gays like crap". It implies, intentionally or not, that only one specific group does it.
And there is a very simple way to tell. If I'm speaking from experience, I will say things like "In my experience", "in my opinion" and "as far as I know". If I don't, there's generally more evidence behind it than just wild hearsay.
You might do that, but I of course don't know you personally, and I can't count the number of times I've heard people (often family members or friends) speaking about word of mouth or personal experience as if they were fact.
And I was being heavily ironic when replying, because as I may have mentioned earlier, I don't think you should be linking youtube users "whatever" to illustrate whatever you are talking about. We all know how to read, and when it comes to big important issues there is generally a wealth of text from different sources that we can peruse, rather than having to sit and listen to someone who got their opinion from god knows where tell us how they think things work. Case in hand, listening to someone from a country where racism is pretty common telling you who they have no racism instead of just googling "racism against roma" (which is what I did to counter your link) and reading texts from a somewhat reliable source.
"Ironic" is the wrong word here; the correct word is "sarcastic". Sarcasm is a device you should be VERY CAREFUL with, because it can get you into fights very easily.
Here's why I mention that: I wasn't trying to "illustrate" something I said. You said, "they're treated like crap in Romania by the Romanians" (emphasis added), and I said that a Romanian on YouTube seems to think that Romanians don't particularly care. The user was who I was talking about, not an attempt at evidence.
To demonstrate, imagine that I (an American) said that Mexicans treat Muslims like crap, but someone else points out that someone with a Facebook account who lives in Mexico has several Muslim friends.
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Lukipela
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The Ancient One
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Oh, you were talking of my perception of the Romanian perception of the Roma! Sorry about that, since the rest of us were talking about the actual treatment of Roma in Europe in general I missed that you were more interested in whether it's unfair to say that they are treated badly by Romanians specifically. I guess I should go look for some video saying that the republicans don't think gays are a big deal if I want an analogy.
So I should have googled "racism against Roma in Romania" instead of just racism against Roma. To satisfy you. Why don't you do that as an excerise instead, I think the result won't be shockingly different from the rest of eastern Europe, or western for that matter. Just try to find something with a wee bit more gravitas than a random dude on youtube.
The reason I singled out Romania wasn't because I think Romanians are any more racist than their neighbouring countries. If you check my post, you'll see that I note that the Roma have always been around, but they haven't been as much of an issue before Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU. Romania has a very large Roma population that is now looking for a better life elsewhere, which is why the situation of Romanian Roma is more relevant, in this discussion about Roma moving into western European countries, than say the treatment of Roma in Serbia. They get a shitty deal everywhere, but the emigrants mostly come from Romania. Which is why it is relevant.
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 07:04:08 pm by Lukipela »
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What's up doc?
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Onpon, sarcasm is a subset of verbal irony, so he was right regardless. And while sarcasm may be something one should be careful with, claims of non-racism are too. Especially when they're clearly wrong. Seriously. Just so you know.
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onpon4
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Onpon, sarcasm is a subset of verbal irony, so he was right regardless. And while sarcasm may be something one should be careful with, claims of non-racism are too. Especially when they're clearly wrong. Seriously. Just so you know.
Sarcasm, when not used with friends, can easily cause one of three things: number 1, you make the other person look like an idiot; number 2, you make yourself look like an idiot; and number 3, you get into a fight with someone you don't even disagree with. The first outcome is not a problem for the one using sarcasm, and the second is manageable, but the third should definitely be avoided. I'm sure you can comprehend why that might happen; the person you're being sarcastic to will feel like he's being made a fool of, take offense, and fail to recognize that you are misunderstanding what he meant. This can cause him to act irrationally on his emotions.
I would like to reiterate that I didn't make a claim of non-racism. I claimed that someone else made this claim. Looking back and finding the video in question, I actually completely misinterpreted what she said, because she was talking about how other Romanians would try to insult her by calling her a gypsy, and she stated that SHE doesn't care about race. And for that, shame on me, but I still never directly made the claim of no racism, just a claim that someone else made that claim and some speculation that that supposed claim might be true (since Luki seemed to my unknowing brain like he was just making the opposite claim).
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