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Author Topic: Project6014's new ships  (Read 12505 times)
dczanik
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 01:08:31 am »

Lurg Bubbles slow down the ship temporarily.

The hard one to figure out is probably the Baul.  His primary weapon does no damage to ships.  The primary weapon and the secondary weapon need to mix to create an explosion. Shoot the red gas and it will explode. Sometimes causing a chain reaction.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 01:09:46 am »

@dczanik: Thanks for the introduction. Also thank you for explaining your points in length.

You can consider choosing any ship for different reasons. It doesn't have to be a tactical choice: you may have a credit limit, you may simply want to use your skill with that particular ship, or you play historical battle re-enactment, or you may think that ship looks neat, or there's someone pointing a Magnum to your head, saying your only salvation in this situation is choosing that ship. All of these reasons are just as viable as the king and trumps approach, that's why all of them are unimportant. Would we make a sequel to a strategy game I'd agree, but we're not.

-- I don't think the Lurg Prawn is irritating, actually it forces the enemy to use a risky tactic against them. Lack of flexibility on the players' side is something the Prawn shouldn't be blamed for.
-- The Baul Punisher is a brutal unrefined tactician. You have to lay a string of gas clouds so you can use the chain explosions to cause damage. If you're lucky enough the clouds can stick on an enemy, and when they are, each of them cause even more damage. But because the Baul are technologically underdeveloped, their effectiveness has to come with a price: you have to be careful with the gas or you blow yourself up. If you don't like taking a 180° turn then you can use momentum while assuming a more comfortable direction. The Earthling Cruiser is a great nemesis for the Punisher, but circling near the planet provides some cover and might be helpful in feeding some gas with the Cruiser too. I agree with the speed thing, at least to an extent that the Punisher might just have enough engine power to hold it's place against the Chmmr tractor beam, so he can still use a self damaging tactic against the Avatar. I wouldn't like to have the gas floating towards the enemy, first because gases don't do that, second because moving pieces in a chained trap would make the only weapon of the Baul unreliable.
-- The Foon-Foon Typhoon is a close combat ship, though it's not designed to do any fighting. It's weapons should speak that fact by being glitchy, rough but effective, and risky to use. The dervish is already too perfect against Chmmr sats and Quan fighters and, well ... everything, if you're using it skillfully. It's also a partial defense and an evasion tactic (I used it in all forms). It might need to have a longer cooldown period so a quicker opponent could attempt to retaliate. Also the dervish's range is long enough already ... I guess longer than the Mauler's cannon. The only problematic thing is the basic Sabre: it's weak, even with it's risk being it's close range requirement. It may stutter, or might need charging time to be able to deal larger damage.

Why choose the Foon-Foon? ... #1 opponent against Slylandro Probe.
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dczanik
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 05:39:42 am »

Well, I am terrible at playing the FoonFoon. Maybe it's just me. So I decided to let the AI have a fleet of FoonFoon Typhoon ships.
I did a test of the Foon Foon.  Me against a flee of Foon-Foon Typhoons.  I chose a group I like to call my "Minions". 

I didn't do any screen recording (I saved you the agony, trust me).
What I found is I was almost able to defeat an entire FF fleet, with just 1 Vux ship. That 1 ship got destroyed. But that's because I ran into a planet a few times.  That's right, I'm actually more dangerous to MYSELF than an entire Foon Foon Fleet  Undecided
I chose my 2nd Vux just to finish the 1 species....


I completely obliterated them. 
Well, that's the Vux, it's more powerful, right?  How about something less powerful. Something quick. Something more on the level the FF is supposed to be?
I chose the Arilou. Arilou vs. an entire FLEET of Foon-Foon!
How did I do?



Not a single scratch! With no inertia, avoiding the planets are easier.

So I thought. Okay. What's the WEAKEST enemy then?! Something the FF will be SURE to defeat? How about the Shofixti? Yes, I know some rock at this ship, but not me. I suck.
And yet...



That one kill. Once again, that's me running into the planet and blowing myself up. Oh, the FF touched me though. Took a whole 2 crew away.  This battle lasted a half hour. My hands are still hurting. Why did it last so long? Told you I suck.  Tongue

My conclusion? The FF are weak and the AI is broken. Sorry guys.  Undecided


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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 05:57:13 am »

If the Lurg were slowed by their own bubbles, that'd keep them from turtling too much. The bubbles will need a short ripening time during which they don't slow. That'd help.

The Baul... seems like you're invincible if you don't charge it, or if you can simply arrange not to cross its trail. That's really really weak. If the gas balls, you know, moved... and especially if they lasted until the affected ship was destroyed, like limpets, amplifying the damage from all incoming weapons.

So, it seems reasonable to want to make one of them homing, and the other direct-fire. I'm thinking, the balls would make a good medium-long ranged direct fire weapon with medium-high energy cost (so the number of balls doesn't get too high, making too thorough a softener), and the main shot a medium-short ranged homing weapon with low energy cost.
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Kwayne
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 07:51:15 am »

@dczanik: it seems you're pretty desperate in proving something, but you of all should know that we didn't have time for making a proper AI for either the Typhoon (which I think got it's AI from the Umgah) or the Punisher. That doesn't mean either of them is a weak design.

However matches against Human players might be a real problem for the Punisher. Even though I think it's a bit stupid, homing gas clouds might be an answer ... but I'd rather pick an alternative if I had one right now.
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dczanik
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 08:15:14 am »

@dczanik: it seems you're pretty desperate in proving something, but you of all should know that we didn't have time for making a proper AI for either the Typhoon (which I think got it's AI from the Umgah) or the Punisher. That doesn't mean either of them is a weak design.

However matches against Human players might be a real problem for the Punisher. Even though I think it's a bit stupid, homing gas clouds might be an answer ... but I'd rather pick an alternative if I had one right now.

Aww, don't take it personally Kwayne. I'm not criticizing the design. The forum topic was asking for a critique on the ships. The design isn't weak. The design of both ships are great. I just think they need tweaking. If you re-read my first post on here, I think there's potential for some real fun here. I'm just not having fun with these ships in their current form.  I know the programmers are working hard on the A.I.  I know you worked hard on the design.  But, it needs to be fixed.   You can't have a forum topic asking for input on something, then say I'm "pretty desperate in proving something" when I offer my input.   Huh That's what forums are for.  Shoot, just today somebody complained about the Syreen's chin.  I'll just roll with the punches and fix it.

The Lurg design was mine, and yet I criticized my own ship the most. I hate the Lurg. At least your stuff just needs some tweaking.  The AI is broken though. I just want them more awesome.
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dczanik
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 08:29:36 am »

If the Lurg were slowed by their own bubbles, that'd keep them from turtling too much. The bubbles will need a short ripening time during which they don't slow. That'd help.

The Baul... seems like you're invincible if you don't charge it, or if you can simply arrange not to cross its trail. That's really really weak. If the gas balls, you know, moved... and especially if they lasted until the affected ship was destroyed, like limpets, amplifying the damage from all incoming weapons.

So, it seems reasonable to want to make one of them homing, and the other direct-fire. I'm thinking, the balls would make a good medium-long ranged direct fire weapon with medium-high energy cost (so the number of balls doesn't get too high, making too thorough a softener), and the main shot a medium-short ranged homing weapon with low energy cost.

Lurg: Turtling is the perfect term. I used to play Team Fortress a lot and I hated matches that everybody Turtled.  The AI is set on that turtling behavior. It would need a lot more changes in order to come up with something effective. 
Baul: Yeah, homing gas does sound stupid.  But maybe there's really a canister spraying the gas, and that homes in on the target? 

My favorite types of ships are the big behemoth ships (CHMMR, Ur-Quan, Kohr,Ah) and the fast strafing ships (Arilou, Supox, Utwig, Yehat).  So probably the biggest reason I dislike the two is both are really defensive ships.  I just have no patience for them.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2011, 10:08:53 am »

You presented several screenshots about how crappy the AI works, arguing for a change in design. I just don't see the consistency here, and I don't think it's a honest argument, especially when you ridicule the ship you didn't have the flexibility to play, nor the patience to practice with. Nothing personal of course and I also think the ship designs need tweaking, but I'd rather do that not due to subjective personal measures of how "fun" they are. So forum or not, feelings don't count as viable points.

If you're not patient for "defensive ships", then the Prawn and the Punisher are simply not your ships to choose, the same way the Umgah Drone is not a ship for me to choose. In case you don't like the program on a TV channel (let's say Fox), that's why God created the remote controller, but still there are people watching and liking that channel.

But I want to make you feel better, so I tell you in advance that I got concepts of the Faz and Taalo ships, the former being a crazy action maniac design, the latter being ... well ... a war mammoth -- possibly the largest of them all.

I didn' say before though that I really like the idea of an overcharged FF blowing itself up ... it also fits the concept. Maybe the ship itself needs to pulsate to indicate the danger.
And the canister may be a good idea too.
I think the problem with the Prawn is that it's bubbles suck up too much damage from enemy fire -- making them less resistant could give chance to the player to carve a hole in the Prawn's fortress tactic.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 12:56:33 pm »

Yup, Damon, the reason the FF & Bau AI fared so poorly against you is that there is no AI for them!

Currently FF only has vanilla basic AI which means it can't use it's secondary weapon at all. Baul has currently copy-pasted Thraddash AI which means it's able to lay its gas clouds, but doesn't have the intelligence to shoot at them. So both of the new ships are incabable of using their strongest weapons on AI. No wonder they get their asses kicked.

I do agree with you that the ships are ALMOST there. Quite fun, but not yet splendid.
-Maybe Baul needs that faster acceleration to defer Chmmr's tractor beam. Or faster turning rate to make a bit more viable against any ship.
-There are so many good ideas here for the FF primary weapon that it's hard to choose which one of them we should start implementing!
-The idea of Lurg bubbles affecting also the Lurg ship itself (after a certain time period) is interesting. It might make the Prawn less obnoxious to play against, forcing it to move more.
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dczanik
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2011, 06:14:06 pm »

Kwayne: No sir. I'm arguing for a change in the Lurg design. Smiley I think it needs it. That's changing the way it works.  Changing something like making the FF beam life isn't asking for a re-design.  At least, not to me. It's just a tweak, man. Smiley But you're right. I did concede that I'm just not a big fan of defensive ships. That's why I mentioned it. There's no wrong opinions here, because that's all they are... just opinions.  But if somebody is asking what I think about them, I think it's best to be honest about it. Opinions or feelings on something that are disregarded as invalid defeats the whole purpose of the topic and gathering feedback in the first place. It's cool if we just disagree. 

SuperButcherX: Thanks. I'm glad you're not taking personally since I think I was hardest on you.  The FF just wasn't firing at me.  It's just a few tweaks and I think they are awesome.  But the AI. That's something that needs work.  It moves around pretty good. It's hard to hit.  But they're a little too much of a pacifist. They hardly ever fire. And when they did, the beam was on constantly until I shot at them. I could have sworn that they did better in one of the builds I've tried. This is just a beta demo. I think we all understand things will change in the final version.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2011, 06:21:57 pm »

Maybe I don't understand the Baul at all. How are you supposed to get the fuel gobs on the enemy in the first place? Ram them butt-first and drop them then?
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2011, 09:53:54 pm »

Think of "globs" as mines, and primary weapon as detonator.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 09:54:11 pm »

Ok, guys,
judging by this thread and some more or less constructive criticism at star-control.com's boards it seems that the Baul is
a) lacking some aggressive attitude
b) too similar to Lurg gameplay-wise.

This is why I'm trying this kinda thing:
The Baul gas shoots forward quite fast and after that, gradually slows down to total halt.

This way you can play both offensively and defensively: You can lay out a minefield and play the waiting game, or you can engage the opponent, pepper him with some gas clouds and the finish the bastard off with your primary spray!!! HA HA HAA!!!

I also eliminated a bug which reduced the effect of the chain reactioning shockwaves... this resulted in the explosions being perhaps even bit too strong now.

But. Those of you that can: Download the latest updates, compile & try it out. See if you like it better! (I do Wink )
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superbutcherx
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 10:38:17 pm »

Heh heh heh, it was fun thrashing the 300 point armada with all Baul + 4 FF ships fleet! Cheesy

Although it was much because the AI is pretty stupid against the Baul gas:  Yehat & Kohr-Ah come straight at it, relying on their specials to handle them. Ah well, gotta change that.

Anyway, the forward-shooting gas made the ship much more fun to play IMO. The ship has still freshness because it still has its two-component action and can deal damage to self.
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Re: Project6014's new ships
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2011, 12:30:20 am »

Gekko and I just played a quick netmelee game. FoonFoon seems quite effective against flanking ships, that's enough of a niche to make the current design worthwhile. The primary is pretty useless, but the dervish thing is so powerful that the primary should probably stay mostly useless. We didn't do exhaustive tests or anything, so it could be that it's broken somehow and we just didn't figure it out. Smiley
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