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Author Topic: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy  (Read 13849 times)
hackdx
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 04:15:54 pm »

I thought I'd add something I just discovered. This one requires a spoiler warning.

The Kzer-Za give the following explanation of the consequences of a Kohr-Ah victory:

(click to show/hide)

Thus we know now that 1) following the first conflict in Mael'num space, the Kzer-Za found the Sa-Matra, defeated the Kohr-Ah, kept the Sa-Matra, and the two started off on their migration; 2) SC2 takes place when the two species meet again for the first time; 3) the winner of the ritual battle will be the new guardian of the Sa-Matra, and a new migration starts, until the next meeting.

Since this is apparently supposed to happen over and over again, I suppose that it is understood that any single migration will only ever touch on a very small part of sentient life in the galaxy, and that there's no fear that any single sweep will either exterminate or enslave all life.


Actually, one thing that I don't understand fully is whether both Ur-Quan species are supposed to be entirely invincible. Do they always succeed with their doctrine? Do they never get the crap beaten out of them by a stronger adversary? Or do they just know how to avoid even stronger races? Perhaps the Ur-Quan that guard the Sa-Matra are allowed to use it and thus effectively become invincible, but the other sub-species would surely have to be a bit more careful... How come the Kohr-Ah claim to have never been defeated?
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Death 999
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2012, 10:06:31 pm »

Because there isn't always someone tougher out there.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2012, 11:57:58 pm »

Also note that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za came very close to failing in the war with the Alliance. If it weren't for the Sa-Matra they may well have lost, it was a rough stalemate until they pulled out the Sa-Matra.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 12:50:21 am »

Not really. The Alliance was loosing. Just not fast enough before Kohr-Ah arrival.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 02:12:31 am »

Not really. The Alliance was loosing. Just not fast enough before Kohr-Ah arrival.

Loosing? You mean the Alliance was breaking up (i.e. becoming looser)? I've never heard that expression before. Tongue
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 02:49:43 am »

Well, from what Hayes says, it sure doesn't sound like things started out well for the Alliance.

Quote from: Hayes
The Ur-Quan came roaring through VUX space, and tried to push past the Indi and Mira star systems.
Their onslaught was barely repulsed and our counter-attack made hardly a dent in Hierarchy forces
but we held the line -- The Coreward front remained intact.

But this was actually the start of a whole ten years worth of stalemate:

Quote from: Hayes
Over the following ten years, there were many great battles between the combined Alliance starfleet
and the Ur-Quan and their Hierarchy of Battle Thralls.

The Alliance didn't start to crumble until a 'dramatic shift in the balance of power' happened, presumably the final assault with the Sa-Matra:

Quote from: Hayes
Then, in 2134, a dramatic shift in the balance of power took place
this must have been just about the time the science research mission was sent to your planet at Vela
our fleets were pushed back from the Indi-Mira line to beyond Raynet.
Holding Rigel cost grievously in Chenjesu forces and the Ur-Quan, recognizing this weakness
shifted to focus the brunt of their forces on Procyon.
That was the last we heard from the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm.

Note that the Slave War started nearly forty years before, with the Chenjesu first picking up their signals in 2098:

Quote from: Hayes
Earth got involved late in the game, in 2112, when the Chenjesu arrived in our solar system for the first time
so let's back up a few years to 2098
when the Chenjesu's super-sensitive receivers detected a strange signal from the Ophiuchi constellation.

It took the Ur-Quan over thirty years to conquer this sector even *with* the Sa-Matra! Now without the Sa-Matra deployment in 2134, it's easy to imagine the Alliance gradually gaining the upper hand, especially considering that the Ur-Quan ended up with some of the most useless and unstable races in this sector as battle thralls (Spathi anyone?).
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 05:35:21 am »

Well, from what Hayes says, it sure doesn't sound like things started out well for the Alliance.

Quote from: Hayes
The Ur-Quan came roaring through VUX space, and tried to push past the Indi and Mira star systems.
Their onslaught was barely repulsed and our counter-attack made hardly a dent in Hierarchy forces
but we held the line -- The Coreward front remained intact.

But this was actually the start of a whole ten years worth of stalemate:

Quote from: Hayes
Over the following ten years, there were many great battles between the combined Alliance starfleet
and the Ur-Quan and their Hierarchy of Battle Thralls.

The Alliance didn't start to crumble until a 'dramatic shift in the balance of power' happened, presumably the final assault with the Sa-Matra:

Quote from: Hayes
Then, in 2134, a dramatic shift in the balance of power took place
this must have been just about the time the science research mission was sent to your planet at Vela
our fleets were pushed back from the Indi-Mira line to beyond Raynet.
Holding Rigel cost grievously in Chenjesu forces and the Ur-Quan, recognizing this weakness
shifted to focus the brunt of their forces on Procyon.
That was the last we heard from the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm.

Note that the Slave War started nearly forty years before, with the Chenjesu first picking up their signals in 2098:

Quote from: Hayes
Earth got involved late in the game, in 2112, when the Chenjesu arrived in our solar system for the first time
so let's back up a few years to 2098
when the Chenjesu's super-sensitive receivers detected a strange signal from the Ophiuchi constellation.

It took the Ur-Quan over thirty years to conquer this sector even *with* the Sa-Matra! Now without the Sa-Matra deployment in 2134, it's easy to imagine the Alliance gradually gaining the upper hand, especially considering that the Ur-Quan ended up with some of the most useless and unstable races in this sector as battle thralls (Spathi anyone?).

The assault of the Sa-Matra was only on the Chenjesu, when the Ur-Quan had their focus on them. It was the only place the Sa-Matra was used, apparently to speed up the Ur-Quan's victory.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 10:11:45 am »

It took the Ur-Quan over thirty years to conquer this sector even *with* the Sa-Matra! Now without the Sa-Matra deployment in 2134, it's easy to imagine the Alliance gradually gaining the upper hand, especially considering that the Ur-Quan ended up with some of the most useless and unstable races in this sector as battle thralls (Spathi anyone?).

The assault of the Sa-Matra was only on the Chenjesu, when the Ur-Quan had their focus on them. It was the only place the Sa-Matra was used, apparently to speed up the Ur-Quan's victory.
[/quote]

The dramatic shift in power was likely more of a tactical nature, the Ur-Quan managing to whip their Thralls into goodenough order to work efficiently together and bringing more of their own forces to bear. Might even have been the arrival of more Dreadnoughts from the last sector they conquered, which had been left behind to clean up or something.

But as onpon says, it's made pretty clear that the Sa-Matra was put into play only against the chenjesy when the Alliance was already crumbling, and just used to speed the process up because the Kohr-Ah had been detected. They would have won anyway, but it would have taken time.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 04:00:52 pm »

Quote from: Chmmr
WE REALIZED THAT THE ONLY WAY TO TRULY DEFEAT THE UR-QUAN
WAS TO FIRST DESTROY THEIR PRECURSOR BATTLE PLATFORM... THE SA-MATRA.
THIS VESSEL WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VICTORY OF THE HIERARCHY OVER THE ALLIANCE.
WHEN IT WAS BROUGHT TO BEAR AGAINST OUR WORLDS, WE COULD NOT RESIST IT.

This suggests that the Sa-Matra was used to crack the shell, as it were, then set aside.

The evidence is conflicting.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 04:09:23 pm »

This was always a unclear point but based on the information given from the alliance races and the battle thralls, I would suggest that the Sa-Matra was used to break the coreward front and allowed the Ur-Quan to break the lines down. The reason I don't believe the Battle Thralls were involved in that push is because several of the thralls were surprised at the sudden shift in power (Mainly the Spathi) . They were also unaware of the Sa-Matra meaning the Ur-Quan kept them out of the fight when they finally brought that ship to bear on them (most of the thralls were not even sure where the alliance races were enslaved to suggesting after the front broke, the Ur-quan left them behind)

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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 11:14:24 pm »

I'd guess from the limited evidence their strategy was to quickly reduce the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm with the Sa-Matra, taking out Alliance leadership and permitting easy access to Earth and much of the Alliance's industrial capacity. The change in the balance of power along the Indi-Mira line would have been a huge strike with nearly every ship the Hierarchy had, to draw Alliance fleets away from the planned assault point, giving the Sa-Matra group a far softer target.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 11:36:10 pm »

Quote
ust used to speed the process up because the Kohr-Ah had been detected. They would have won anyway, but it would have taken time.

I don't know if i believe that they would have won anyway but I do agree the reasoning was because they detected the Kor-ah were coming.

This leads to a more interesting question though. If the Ur-Quan had not been so entrenched with their war against the alliance and had not lost so many ships...could they have won the war with the Kor-ah?
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 11:41:21 pm »

This leads to a more interesting question though. If the Ur-Quan had not been so entrenched with their war against the alliance and had not lost so many ships...could they have won the war with the Kor-ah?

It's pretty clear they lost because of the "Blaze of Glory", not the war in general. The Yehat claim it reduced the Ur-Quan fleet by 30%. Of course, this contradicts Fwiffo's claim of "dozens" of dreadnaughts (unless the Ur-Quan fleet has only 100-200 ships, which seems kind of insane). There was a discussion about that one a while back IIRC, but I don't remember what was said.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2012, 01:01:09 am »

It's pretty clear they lost because of the "Blaze of Glory", not the war in general.

That's somewhat ironic - had the Alliance surrendered sooner, they might have avoided complete annihilation at the hands of the Kohr-Ah (given that nobody knew about the Precursor vessel). Then again, nobody knew about the Kohr-Ah, either, until later on... and it's really lucky on the grand scheme that Earth just so happens to be at the rendezvous point of the two Ur-Quan species: had the doctrinal war been fought anywhere else, then humans would either end up annihilated, or the Precursor vessel wouldn't have got very far with the entire might of the Kzer-Za fleets concentrated on hunting it down.
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Re: Doctrinal War, or how to move around the galaxy
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2012, 02:19:37 am »

Of course, this contradicts Fwiffo's claim of "dozens" of dreadnaughts (unless the Ur-Quan fleet has only 100-200 ships, which seems kind of insane).

That could be well over 100-200 ships, easily. 10 dozen = 120, 20 dozen = 240. These are not small numbers, and even larger ones could still quite handily be referred with the term 'dozens'.
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