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Author Topic: Are there new ships to download?  (Read 5938 times)
Kwayne
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2012, 11:14:05 pm »

Caring about the well-being of other races is not an obligation of any lifeform. Not caring about humans doesn't qualify an other race as evil. (And at least you should appreciate their efforts in honestly telling that to you.) Kangaroos, african elephants, fireants and gibbons most probably also don't give a damn about whether or not you die, they just don't drive their cars over to your house just to tell you that.

You might have a romantic view about humanity, but as I remember the human race chose (by popular vote) to be trapped under a slave shield instead of having enough freedom to liberate other species later. Other facts:

- the Earthling Cruiser was the second weakest ship in the AFS
- the technologies used to defeat the Ur-Quan were of either Precursor, Melnorme or Chmmr manufacture
- the greatest tactical contribution to defeating the Ur-Quan races was the destruction of the Sa-Matra, with a Precursor ship loaded with a Precursor-Chmmr bomb
- the destruction of the Sa-Matra was only allowed in the absence of the majority of Ur-Quan ships, triggered by the mind control powers of a Dnyarri who was kept in check with a Taalo device
- the greatest strategic contribution was made by the Chmmr, providing their Avatar ships
- the second greatest strategic contribution was made by the united Yehat/Pkunk fleet
- the only reason Hayes and Zelnick started the NAFS project was because of the promise of victory they saw in the giant Precursor vessel Zelnick had
- the Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm arranged a long range plan to fuse themselves into the Chmmr so they can liberate other species

So why should the Lurg have high regards of humans? By mere accident the guy who started the NAFS was a human, that's all. Humanity is not worthy of praise for the actions of one individual.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2012, 05:26:24 am »

Well it qualifies as a disregard for life and an entire species then, doesn't it?
Disregard for one species, maybe, but life in general? Not necessarily. Besides, there are plenty of reasons not to have a high opinion of humans.

It seems like that would be the case top if they try to genetically engineer things to be ships.
I can't see the "genetic engineering = lack of regard for life" argument at all. They might commonly go together, but they're not intrinsically linked.

Also, why not have high praise? Without us who else would have went around the galaxy and eventually defeat the ur-quan and free many races?
They don't seem to consider that a particularly high accomplishment. I imagine they have hidden reasons to dismiss it as nothing but a minor victory.

EDIT: Actually, Kwayne's argument citing the relatively minor role of humans seems a better argument for this one.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 05:28:42 am by CelticMinstrel » Logged
dathinvaderzim
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2012, 05:39:38 am »

Caring about the well-being of other races is not an obligation of any lifeform. Not caring about humans doesn't qualify an other race as evil. (And at least you should appreciate their efforts in honestly telling that to you.) Kangaroos, african elephants, fireants and gibbons most probably also don't give a damn about whether or not you die, they just don't drive their cars over to your house just to tell you that.

You might have a romantic view about humanity, but as I remember the human race chose (by popular vote) to be trapped under a slave shield instead of having enough freedom to liberate other species later. Other facts:

- the Earthling Cruiser was the second weakest ship in the AFS
- the technologies used to defeat the Ur-Quan were of either Precursor, Melnorme or Chmmr manufacture
- the greatest tactical contribution to defeating the Ur-Quan races was the destruction of the Sa-Matra, with a Precursor ship loaded with a Precursor-Chmmr bomb
- the destruction of the Sa-Matra was only allowed in the absence of the majority of Ur-Quan ships, triggered by the mind control powers of a Dnyarri who was kept in check with a Taalo device
- the greatest strategic contribution was made by the Chmmr, providing their Avatar ships
- the second greatest strategic contribution was made by the united Yehat/Pkunk fleet
- the only reason Hayes and Zelnick started the NAFS project was because of the promise of victory they saw in the giant Precursor vessel Zelnick had
- the Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm arranged a long range plan to fuse themselves into the Chmmr so they can liberate other species

So why should the Lurg have high regards of humans? By mere accident the guy who started the NAFS was a human, that's all. Humanity is not worthy of praise for the actions of one individual.

Ever hear of "devil's advocate"?

Well it qualifies as a disregard for life and an entire species then, doesn't it?
Disregard for one species, maybe, but life in general? Not necessarily. Besides, there are plenty of reasons not to have a high opinion of humans.

It seems like that would be the case top if they try to genetically engineer things to be ships.
I can't see the "genetic engineering = lack of regard for life" argument at all. They might commonly go together, but they're not intrinsically linked.

Also, why not have high praise? Without us who else would have went around the galaxy and eventually defeat the ur-quan and free many races?
They don't seem to consider that a particularly high accomplishment. I imagine they have hidden reasons to dismiss it as nothing but a minor victory.

EDIT: Actually, Kwayne's argument citing the relatively minor role of humans seems a better argument for this one.

But if they disregard life, then relative to the life they disregard, couldn't they easily be evil?
Just as there is no universal frame of reference for time, neither is there one for morality.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 05:41:43 am by dathinvaderzim » Logged
Kwayne
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2012, 09:17:52 pm »

Ever hear of "devil's advocate"?
Yep. What's your point asking that?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 09:19:53 pm by Kwayne » Logged

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dathinvaderzim
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2012, 02:40:32 am »

Ever hear of "devil's advocate"?
Yep. What's your point asking that?

So you said all that acting as if I didn't already know all that while I was even simultaneously talking about the relativity of morals...
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Draxas
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2012, 03:07:33 am »

You might have a romantic view about humanity, but as I remember the human race chose (by popular vote) to be trapped under a slave shield instead of having enough freedom to liberate other species later. Other facts:

- the Earthling Cruiser was the second weakest ship in the AFS

And yet without Earth's industrial production capacity, the Alliance would have fallen much sooner. It's also quite likely that the Arilou never would have joined at all.

Quote
- the technologies used to defeat the Ur-Quan were of either Precursor, Melnorme or Chmmr manufacture

My fleet of Eluders begs to differ. Grin

Quote
- the greatest tactical contribution to defeating the Ur-Quan races was the destruction of the Sa-Matra, with a Precursor ship loaded with a Precursor-Chmmr bomb

Which a human had to jump through quite a few hoops to obtain, including being a favored friend of the Pkunk leadership, a shrewd negotiator with the Druuge, either very tough or very crafty with the Thraddash, and tolerant enough to put up with the Utwig constantly whining. And that's just half the bomb.

Quote
- the destruction of the Sa-Matra was only allowed in the absence of the majority of Ur-Quan ships, triggered by the mind control powers of a Dnyarri who was kept in check with a Taalo device

Credit where credit is due. Actually acquiring both was no mean feat, though.

Quote
- the greatest strategic contribution was made by the Chmmr, providing their Avatar ships
- the second greatest strategic contribution was made by the united Yehat/Pkunk fleet

Also very true.

Quote
- the only reason Hayes and Zelnick started the NAFS project was because of the promise of victory they saw in the giant Precursor vessel Zelnick had

Which, mind you, he was the only one capable of piloting, because the sentient AI that ran the ship's computer wouldn't talk to anyone else.

Quote
- the Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm arranged a long range plan to fuse themselves into the Chmmr so they can liberate other species

Which they would have been exterminated only a short while into by the Kohr-Ah if a human hadn't accelerated their timetable.

Of course, the one thing all these counterpoints and accomplishments call attention to is that Zelnick is an exceptional human, not that humanity as a whole is exceptional. But nobody else was in his unique position, either, and without him the Kohr-Ah would be ruling over an otherwise empty galaxy.
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Kwayne
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2012, 07:35:20 am »

@dathinvaderzim: it seemed to me you wanted to promote the idea that genetic repurposing is an evil disregard for life, and telling others they're irrelevant qualifies one as evil. I don't make assumptions about what you know, and you reciting the same catchy sounding time-morality mantra of yours doesn't exactly inform me about that.

@Draxas, my point is that humanity in general don't deserve much admiration for their role in the defeat of the Ur-Quan.

- Earth's production capacity might have been a great asset to the Great War but it didn't take part in actually defeating the Ur-Quan. The Arilou having an interest in us is not exactly a human achievement.
- Your fleet of Eluders is max 8 ships buildt by a race that withdrew from the entire conflict, and they're still not humans. You know if you had a fleet of 8 Earthling Cruisers against the Sa-Matra they would be one of the least capable force.
- It's true that the Captain was human, but his personal deeds don't count as the achievements of his race. That would be like saying that german nation should be praised for the scientific contribution of Albert Einstein. A distasteful hijacking of personal merits.

What I think is admirable though is what the Yehat would agree with me in: humans are a species that crawled out into space by their own efforts, without help. However for me that is also doubtful because I don't have any information about how the Arilou influenced our technological development by changing our "smell".
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2012, 05:08:33 am »

Which, mind you, he was the only one capable of piloting, because the sentient AI that ran the ship's computer wouldn't talk to anyone else.

Uh... did you play a different version of the game or something? When did this happen?[/quote]
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Re: Are there new ships to download?
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2012, 05:44:54 am »

Uh... did you play a different version of the game or something? When did this happen?
[/quote]

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