The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 28, 2022, 07:07:01 am
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Kickstarter?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 Print
Author Topic: Kickstarter?  (Read 19648 times)
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3620


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2012, 08:53:47 am »

Well I gotta say, this is pretty great if you are trolling, though kinda sad if you're not. Either way, it's certainly one of the more amusing threadbreaks I've seen in a while, so thank's for that. I hope poor onpon4 isn't going to get too high blood pressure over your (hopefully) feigned ignorance but it is certainly a show, I'll give it that. Anyway, as I still have some smidgeons of time I'll give this a run over one more time though I doubt you're actually reading much of anything. But at least we can both have fun, eh?

Quote
Topic discussions can easily change,

Sure, but the way they generally happen is that the discussion segues into something else, not that a single person tries to bend reality to their pretty mismatched concept of it. I mean if the topic had drifted to "Could we apply for this ourselves" or some such then why not? But instead it was forcibly set is "Here is what I think you guys are doing though it is completely wrong."

Quote
and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.

Oh absolutely. A simple misunderstanding is no call for rude language or bad behaviour. Perish the thought. But wilfully repeating the misunderstanding though you've been corrected on it numerous times does tend to put people's teeth on edge and sour their moods. what you're doing is the equivalentof going into a nightclub and and asking to buy a train ticket. The first time the bartender is just going to sort of smile and explain that you're in a nightclub and that they don't sell train tickets. But once you've stood at his bar for an hour asking for train tickets, timetables, bonus points for travelling miles and engine data he isn't going to be as friendly anymore, right?

Quote
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

So there's two pretty big threads on the other Star Control forum which I'm not going to link you to. I normally would, but you're not going to read them anyway and I'd rather not see your artform and/or delusions spill over to there. They're easily found by though, so if you want verification it's right there. I've posted in those threads since roughly 2004 or some such, so there's either quite a bit of backstory I made up in preparation for this one discussion with a faceless stranger on the internet or a pretty solid detailing on what I do. The short of it is that I'm a process design engineer in the chemical field and a HSE officer in the execution phase of projects. One part of my job involves designing and redesigning pretty big processes in factories that make goods that our society actually needs to continue (such as fuel, paper, medicine) while the other part involves being present and responsible for safety in the field when we execute said projects (i.e rebuild or construct new things). So in my work, I partially sit in an office and make things better with less pollution and energy consumption. In the other part I'm out in the field doing safety rounds, following up accidents and the likes to protect our entrepreneurs from bodily harm. Next week I have a few risk assessments to conduct and two training events for contractors so that they all know our rules, evacuation procedures, exotic safety hazards and whatnot. I help people, and when things go wrong it's thanks to people like me that they know what to do, where to call, where to go and so on. I don't claim that it is something that changes the world in a grand fashion, but it does make my small corner of it better and safer. It's pretty cool.

Quote
I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

Though not as cool as this. I gotta say, this is hilarious if it's intentional and still kinda funny if it isn't. I mean, the whole concept of a guy having worked on and off on a "sequel" to Star Control 2 for six yeras (while UQM has been around for more than that) without even understanding the distinction between the original game "Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters" and the released under license content and source code "The Ur-Quan Masters" is pretty brilliant. Especially since you ignore the actual source files that contain all the info your requesting every time oldlaptop posts them. It's like your timeline stopped moving in 199whatever and anything that happened after that has not only not registerted on your radar, but can't. Like no matter how many times it is mentioned you can't grasp the content of anything newer. In your world, who is the president of the United States? Bush senior? I mean clearly he was sworn in around that time and nothing can have changed after that, right? Maybe someone else claims to be the president, but we better advise him to ask around a bit.

I'm really enjoying this thread more than I should. Shiver would tell us we're all idiots for replying to you at all, but I dunno. Is it still stupid if you can derive personal pleasure from it, not matter the bad example it sets? Something for the philosophers to ponder I guess.
Logged

What's up doc?
Admiral Zeratul
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 223


I enjoy overthinking things.


View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #136 on: March 29, 2012, 09:42:32 am »

Guys, I think we've been trolled.

That has got to be it, right? No one can possibly achieve this level of stupidity under natural circumstances. I simply refuse to believe it. Either darthinvaderzim is trolling, or he has suffered a terrible head injury. I can think of no other logical explanation to his irrational behavior.
Logged

Priority override. New behavior dictated. Must break post into component ideas.
onpon4
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 709


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #137 on: March 29, 2012, 01:03:55 pm »

I have been instructed by a moderator that I must cease name-calling, so I'll just have to revert to acting like you have some sort of interest in learning. Unfortunately, if memory serves, 12 is around the age the desire to learn ceases in many children, but I'll try my best. Pay attention, dathinvaderzim.

Let's start from the beginning. When you create a "creative" work (i.e. an expression) such as a program like Star Control II, it goes under copyright. This means that you, the creator, are the only one who has the right to copy and distribute the creative work. Now, Star Control II had some more complicated copyright ownership if I'm not mistaken, but Toys for Bob now owns the copyright to all source code and content (except, by my understanding, the 3DO videos), so let's pretend TFB owned it all from the start just to make things simpler for you.

Now, in 1992 in our slightly modified reality (for the purposes of simplification), TFB releases SC2 under a restrictive license. This restrictive license is typical, not allowing any form of unauthorized copying or redistribution.

But the thing is, this restricts the receivers of the license, not the copyright owner. Understand the difference? It is perfectly legal (and common) for the copyright owner to re-license the same content under a different license. In this case, Toys For Bob re-licensed the 3DO version of Star Control II under combined terms of the GNU GPL and CC-BY-NC-SA. In the version with the GPL and CC licenses, see, the license the older version was distributed under does not apply. That's kind of how licensing works.

Any questions?

Oh, and I think you're confused:

however the thing I have is 1997, after 2002, so what is this "1992" thing?

1997 is not after 2002. It's five years earlier. Are you suffering from the Y2K bug?
Logged

onpon4
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 709


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #138 on: March 29, 2012, 01:36:42 pm »

Forgot I was going to do a real response to this:

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!
The problem with "stars are made of yellow water" isn't very in-depth at all, and you wouldn't need to know any physics in order to guess that.

Ignoring the fact that you put your username in the author field where mine belongs, what? You do realize I pulled the "stars are made of yellow water" thing out of my ass, right? Of course not. I can't think of many places to start, but maybe this will work for your level of education:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALhhGZRsos
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 01:44:36 pm by onpon4 » Logged

dathinvaderzim
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #139 on: March 29, 2012, 02:18:07 pm »

Well I gotta say, this is pretty great if you are trolling, though kinda sad if you're not. Either way, it's certainly one of the more amusing threadbreaks I've seen in a while, so thank's for that. I hope poor onpon4 isn't going to get too high blood pressure over your (hopefully) feigned ignorance but it is certainly a show, I'll give it that. Anyway, as I still have some smidgeons of time I'll give this a run over one more time though I doubt you're actually reading much of anything. But at least we can both have fun, eh?

Quote
Topic discussions can easily change,

Sure, but the way they generally happen is that the discussion segues into something else, not that a single person tries to bend reality to their pretty mismatched concept of it. I mean if the topic had drifted to "Could we apply for this ourselves" or some such then why not? But instead it was forcibly set is "Here is what I think you guys are doing though it is completely wrong."

Quote
and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.

Oh absolutely. A simple misunderstanding is no call for rude language or bad behaviour. Perish the thought. But wilfully repeating the misunderstanding though you've been corrected on it numerous times does tend to put people's teeth on edge and sour their moods. what you're doing is the equivalentof going into a nightclub and and asking to buy a train ticket. The first time the bartender is just going to sort of smile and explain that you're in a nightclub and that they don't sell train tickets. But once you've stood at his bar for an hour asking for train tickets, timetables, bonus points for travelling miles and engine data he isn't going to be as friendly anymore, right?

Quote
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

So there's two pretty big threads on the other Star Control forum which I'm not going to link you to. I normally would, but you're not going to read them anyway and I'd rather not see your artform and/or delusions spill over to there. They're easily found by though, so if you want verification it's right there. I've posted in those threads since roughly 2004 or some such, so there's either quite a bit of backstory I made up in preparation for this one discussion with a faceless stranger on the internet or a pretty solid detailing on what I do. The short of it is that I'm a process design engineer in the chemical field and a HSE officer in the execution phase of projects. One part of my job involves designing and redesigning pretty big processes in factories that make goods that our society actually needs to continue (such as fuel, paper, medicine) while the other part involves being present and responsible for safety in the field when we execute said projects (i.e rebuild or construct new things). So in my work, I partially sit in an office and make things better with less pollution and energy consumption. In the other part I'm out in the field doing safety rounds, following up accidents and the likes to protect our entrepreneurs from bodily harm. Next week I have a few risk assessments to conduct and two training events for contractors so that they all know our rules, evacuation procedures, exotic safety hazards and whatnot. I help people, and when things go wrong it's thanks to people like me that they know what to do, where to call, where to go and so on. I don't claim that it is something that changes the world in a grand fashion, but it does make my small corner of it better and safer. It's pretty cool.

Quote
I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

Though not as cool as this. I gotta say, this is hilarious if it's intentional and still kinda funny if it isn't. I mean, the whole concept of a guy having worked on and off on a "sequel" to Star Control 2 for six yeras (while UQM has been around for more than that) without even understanding the distinction between the original game "Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters" and the released under license content and source code "The Ur-Quan Masters" is pretty brilliant. Especially since you ignore the actual source files that contain all the info your requesting every time oldlaptop posts them. It's like your timeline stopped moving in 199whatever and anything that happened after that has not only not registerted on your radar, but can't. Like no matter how many times it is mentioned you can't grasp the content of anything newer. In your world, who is the president of the United States? Bush senior? I mean clearly he was sworn in around that time and nothing can have changed after that, right? Maybe someone else claims to be the president, but we better advise him to ask around a bit.

I'm really enjoying this thread more than I should. Shiver would tell us we're all idiots for replying to you at all, but I dunno. Is it still stupid if you can derive personal pleasure from it, not matter the bad example it sets? Something for the philosophers to ponder I guess.

I was working an another version, but I specifically did not want to copy everything from sc2, I wanted to make my own, but if it is true that every single thing is somehow absolutely 100% free in every way shape and form, then I'm going to call them and see about maybe using the coding.
Whatever that link it, is doesn't seem to do anything
and it said 1992, which is before 2002, yet the star control 2 source files are in something titled the Uq-Quan masters. But wait, I thought the altered version of the Ur-Quan masters didn't come out until 2002...something went wrong. They must have illegally put their logo on it before it was actually legal because they had anticipated it something would change and that no one involved would find it in time for anything.


But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.


Forgot I was going to do a real response to this:

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!
The problem with "stars are made of yellow water" isn't very in-depth at all, and you wouldn't need to know any physics in order to guess that.

Ignoring the fact that you put your username in the author field where mine belongs, what? You do realize I pulled the "stars are made of yellow water" thing out of my ass, right? Of course not. I can't think of many places to start, but maybe this will work for your level of education:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALhhGZRsos

I already help un-educated people with math and physics anyway, so I'll give it a try here.
Let's look at your theory that and see if we can prove or disprove it, we'll start with the basics:
What is the chemical formula for that "yellow water"? Or, what are the percentage of compounds? With this we can determine the molar mass. Do you know the density? Do you know the state of matter? Water comes in all 4 three forms on Earth...
Next, what is the volume of this structure?
Logged
onpon4
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 709


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2012, 02:33:57 pm »

But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.

You might not realize this, but no one is taking you seriously here. You've shown ignorance of basic copyright law, so why should we?
Logged

dathinvaderzim
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2012, 02:58:36 pm »

But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.

You might not realize this, but no one is taking you seriously here. You've shown ignorance of basic copyright law, so why should we?

CC license for the most part I agreed to mean you can freely distribute it things under it, but what I had stated was that perhaps not every single thing is completely free or in fact under that license or that circumstances can change. Then, I don't know exactly what you got all riled up about.
Also, it's not just with me, no one is taking anything about this game seriously, that's why no one asked around even before I came here and that's why 1 cool mod comes out only every 5 years (statistically).
Most would who do care would take the extra precaution to make sure of everything without anyone even telling them.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:01:19 pm by dathinvaderzim » Logged
Kwayne
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 189



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #142 on: March 29, 2012, 05:58:24 pm »

@dathinvaderzim: Were some content not under the CC free licence, we would know because they wouldn't be in the Ur-Quan Masters Project, which is already a derivative work. They stand since a decade without being pushed around by lawyers because they never broke the terms of TfB, and TfB stands because they didn't release anything they don't own.

The fact that so many people think you're stupid is because many of them spent a sizeable amount of their lifetime loving Star Control and getting informed about it, while suddenly you barge in smartassing with your zero knowledge, demanding to do something you only assume they didn't do already, maybe a hundred times over. All of this because of the highly professional legal advice of your trustworthy, yet totally invisible programmer friends. How are we supposed to take you seriously then? But wait, let's play by your logic, since it seems the shorter solution to the problem you cause. Actually I conversed with our great, omnipotent creator of the universe who knows every programming language plus one, and he has entrusted a message to me to deliver to You. Here it is:

Quote from: God
Hi Steve! I'm very sad to see that your beliefs led you into another conflict with people you can't even see. You know you're not right, and more importantly I know you're not right. You lack the experience and the knowledge to have anything to say about license, game development, people in general or how the world I created works. We both know that such wisdom are not granted to an ex-janitor at Human Head, and you're not even skilled enough to design the bricks for Tetris. I know reality is scary, but you have to throw away your false convictions, you have to stop making up stories and insulting the intelligence of fellow men, because that's not a honest way to converse, and dishonesty won't bring you closer to My Realm. Instead you should listen and learn what these kind people say to you, because they want to empower your soul with facts, so it can meet me in it's full glory after the end of your mortal existence. This is also the most logical thing to do. How do I know? I created logic.

In short: stop fighting, admit your defeat, and salvation will be yours!

Amen!

Say "Amen", Steve!
Logged

Check dA for some of my non-art ... http://kwayne64.deviantart.com/
onpon4
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 709


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #143 on: March 29, 2012, 06:43:52 pm »

Quote from: God
Hi Steve! I'm very sad to see that your beliefs led you into another conflict with people you can't even see. You know you're not right, and more importantly I know you're not right. You lack the experience and the knowledge to have anything to say about license, game development, people in general or how the world I created works. We both know that such wisdom are not granted to an ex-janitor at Human Head, and you're not even skilled enough to design the bricks for Tetris. I know reality is scary, but you have to throw away your false convictions, you have to stop making up stories and insulting the intelligence of fellow men, because that's not a honest way to converse, and dishonesty won't bring you closer to My Realm. Instead you should listen and learn what these kind people say to you, because they want to empower your soul with facts, so it can meet me in it's full glory after the end of your mortal existence. This is also the most logical thing to do. How do I know? I created logic.

In short: stop fighting, admit your defeat, and salvation will be yours!

Amen!

Amen!

1 cool mod comes out only every 5 years (statistically).

So, you're telling me that there have been two "cool" mods of UQM? Define "cool", because I would contradict that. I can think of five very cool mods off the top of my head: the balance mod, EP's "crazy" mod, P6014, UQM Extended, and UQM+.
Logged

Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3620


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #144 on: March 29, 2012, 07:47:53 pm »

I was working an another version, but I specifically did not want to copy everything from sc2, I wanted to make my own, but if it is true that every single thing is somehow absolutely 100% free in every way shape and form, then I'm going to call them and see about maybe using the coding.

Man this just gets better. Please call them, I can imagine the conversation where you confusedly explain that you know all about this "copyright" and "licensing" stuff and then go on to ask them if you can use the work they've licensed under a non-commercial clause for your commercial game. Cause, you know, copyright is binary. Either it's all free for every use for everyone or it's not free for any use ever. Please don't tell your programmer friends about this thoery though, they might mock you ever so slightly.

Quote
Whatever that link it, is doesn't seem to do anything

You not understanding and it not doing anything is the same of course. You are such a delectable little imp my dear!


Quote
and it said 1992, which is before 2002, yet the star control 2 source files are in something titled the Uq-Quan masters. But wait, I thought the altered version of the Ur-Quan masters didn't come out until 2002...something went wrong. They must have illegally put their logo on it before it was actually legal because they had anticipated it something would change and that no one involved would find it in time for anything.

I love this. Seriously. You're building an amazing theory here and I would love to see it illustrated somehow. After all, it is a much simpler explanation that the creators of Star Control screwed up their copyright illegaly to make it legal to move back in time and put their new logo on their old logo to nefarious intents than it could be that you don't actually know the name of the original game you already admitted you know nothing about. You're on to something here I think. You should totally call up someone who might have been around at either of those dates and ask them about jiggawatts.

Quote
But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.


Again, I love the cheekiness here. It takes a strong stomach to argue that a game released 10 years ago on the behest of the content owners and original creators according to their new licensing is probably just an illegal shady pirate version. Almost as good as the fact that you think you're arguing with the creators of said rerelease rather than just random people on their forum. It's an nice touch. I mean sure, for an important person like you the creators of UQM who are clearly credited both on site and in game would don totally different names. That's just sense squared, you little rouge.
Logged

What's up doc?
fossil
Core Team
Frungy champion
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 94



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #145 on: March 30, 2012, 01:17:28 am »

Jumping in on the apparent trolling bandwagon here. It is just such an outlet after the day job.  Grin

@dathinvaderzim: Please allow me to illustrate why it is very hard to take your claims seriously. Having otherwise demonstrated a reasonable command of the English language, you say things like this:
... re-use some of the coding ...
... can't copy coding from it ...
... if the coding was made from scratch...
I already own the Ur-Quan masters... I can't read the files...

Now, this informs every other real programmer in the world that you are not a programmer. I will let you figure out why. It is just more fun that way.

-12 Karma for
Code:
The following post, "Re: Kickstarter?" by onpon4 has been reported by dathinvaderzim on a board you moderate:

http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5193.msg69007#msg69007

The reporter has made the following comment:
Obvious trolling

Code:
The following post, "Re: Kickstarter?" by oldlaptop has been reported by dathinvaderzim on a board you moderate:

http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5193.msg69009#msg69009

The reporter has made the following comment:
Now he's even trolling when he didn't even link me to the proper thing.
Logged
dathinvaderzim
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2012, 04:17:18 am »

Apparently they illegally put the title on their game and said everything was theirs on the internet before they had all the rights to everything, so it's technically illegal, but it hasn't made any money, and accolade officially no longer has  the coding rights, so it's not worth suing over. But because of this, I will not use it;s coding for my own game because that will be sold for making money, even if it's a sponsor, I can't.

By the way, I know the files are source files, even if I wasn't a programmer I would be able to see the similarity between the names in those files and the names of the files in my actual PC version of the Ur-Quan Masters, but I can't read them for some reason.

I'm done with this site anyway, I only came here for a couple questions.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 04:19:01 am by dathinvaderzim » Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3868


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2012, 04:23:17 am »

Thinking more carefully on it, I was wrong to compare dath to Karkat. I think Equius is a closer parallel.
Logged
onpon4
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 709


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2012, 05:22:19 am »

By the way, I know the files are source files, even if I wasn't a programmer I would be able to see the similarity between the names in those files and the names of the files in my actual PC version of the Ur-Quan Masters, but I can't read them for some reason.

You're a programmer, you say? What languages are you most familiar with, out of curiosity?
Logged

player1
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 96



View Profile
Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2012, 09:34:49 am »

Apparently they illegally put the title on their game and said everything was theirs on the internet before they had all the rights to everything, so it's technically illegal, but it hasn't made any money, and accolade officially no longer has  the coding rights, so it's not worth suing over.

Question to everyone reading this thread:
Anyone having any clue what dathinvaderzim is talking about?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!