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Author Topic: Kickstarter?  (Read 19465 times)
CelticMinstrel
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2012, 01:02:54 am »

Why am I being used as a hypothetical example here? :/

No, no it's not. This is a company whose president wants to "take the fun out of videogames," if you recall.
Really? I don't remember anything like that, and I can't imagine how taking the fun out would do anything useful either, since that's primarily what videogames are all about.
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2012, 01:36:58 am »

If they want a "sequal" that avoids any possible legal issues, change the look but keep the mechanics and just say its based off of the plot of sc2, if not ask toys for bob and use kickstarter if they want a lot of money for licensing, it's that simple.

People have been talking about the thought of Toys For Bob using Kickstarter to do a SC2 sequel themselves. They own all necessary rights to do so; all they don't have rights to is the name "Star Control", the trademark of which is owned by Atari. Why are you suggesting that someone else should do it, when that's already happening with Project 6014?

As I originally said, there is a risk that the idea could get stolen, so try not to be too obvious, but don't be too vague either or people won't know what it is.

Let me put it in bold: game ideas are absolutely, 100% completely worthless on their own, especially ideas as simple as "a sequel to an already existing game that a lot of people like". Worrying about an idea getting "stolen" is not something any smart game developer would do. It's a novice move to worry about "protecting" ideas.

Also, didn't accolade go under?

They were purchased by Infogrames, which later became Atari. Your point?
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dathinvaderzim
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2012, 04:06:12 am »

When I say "someone should" or "you", I mean the people who are already working on the game, because anyone with a brain would know it doesn't make sense that I'm asking someone to do it when it's clearly already being worked on.
Toys for bob might have given up on it, probably they got discouraged of the low number of downloads on those sites. With this, just ask around for some licensing, if atari really still makes games somehow and is somehow surviving, then ask them too and they might not ask so much money. If they do, then ask kickstarter for help but don't be too vague or too obvious.

Also your wrong, the idea isn't worthless because my own company is planning on working on a version of it. It won't have as much character as sc2, but you'd be able to tell right away its that kind of game. Although, it was planned before I even knew project 6014 existed.
There will probably be room for differences though, I'll probably link to some download of sc2 because the games are so similar and I really like sc2 unless my sponsorship prohibits that for some reason, won't have as good of a plot I don't think.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 04:09:43 am by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2012, 04:47:17 am »

Toys for bob might have given up on it, probably they got discouraged of the low number of downloads on those sites.

This shows a terrible misunderstanding on your part. TFB desparately wants to make a sequel to Star Control 3; what's stopping them is Activision, which owns them.

Also your wrong, the idea isn't worthless because my own company is planning on working on a version of it.

Now I'm curious. What have you worked on in the past? Do you have a website?
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dathinvaderzim
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2012, 06:34:07 am »

If they haven't made a squeal after all this time then someone in charge doesn't agree BECAUSE it has such a low number of "recorded" downloads. Some CEO  of activision or whatever company owns it and in a select group, they took one look at the download number and said "no way, it's not popular" or "No way, it's too old, console games and iphone games are the thing now.". It would have to be up to someone else to convince the company it's worth their time and resources to make and most companies don't take ideas from random outside people.
Besides, if you tell toy-for-bob they might end up being able to help you. Though it is unlikely,  you can give it a try but most game companies have a contract that whatever their employees work on outside of work is legally property of the company they work for, part of their contract. This is mainly so you can't compete with the company you work for. Either way
The most likely results would be "Sorry man, we can't help you, its in our contract" or "Sorry man, you can't legally work on it, only our company can and they won't do it" in which case you ask the company who owns it how much it would cost to buy the licensing, which is where you use kickstarter. The creator can decide to do a sort of renegade mod that no one will really care about anyway unless it gets tons of downloads, or rename everything, or try to use kickstarter. Maybe even try looking for adds or sponsorships if you can legally do it. Either way, someone should ask around.
Also, we may have recently formed, but you might want to think twice before questioning my validity on the subject, because I spent a lot of time working on other people's projects and getting to know various programmers and artists before it's formation, and the amount of experience I have is probably way more than you, so just drop it.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 06:47:57 am by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2012, 07:27:57 am »

Also, we may have recently formed, but you might want to think twice before questioning my validity on the subject, because I spent a lot of time working on other people's projects and getting to know various programmers and artists before it's formation, and the amount of experience I have is probably way more than you, so just drop it.

I wasn't making any accusations, but I see you're getting defensive. I guess that means you haven't actually worked on any sort of game design in the past? I only brought it up because you're talking like a dreaming kid, concerned about ideas being "stolen", as if ideas themselves are worth that much. All fine and dandy, but then you said I was wrong about the worthlessness of game ideas on their own because of what your company is planning? Huh? That's an argument from authority. A logical fallacy.
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2012, 10:00:16 am »

dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.
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dathinvaderzim
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2012, 04:04:23 pm »

dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.

Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.
Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea? There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on it and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.
The fact that I know all of these facts that you can't possibly learn by googling should be enough, and definitely doesn't warrant rudeness.

I don't know the details of activision or whoever the hell made sc2, but someone needs to ask around, and if it costs a lot of money use kickstarter, but be careful. I don't see what's so unbelievable about that.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 04:11:43 pm by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2012, 04:12:18 pm »

I don't know the details of activision or whoever the hell made sc2

Then what are you doing posting about it?
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dathinvaderzim
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2012, 05:00:47 pm »

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it. If whoever's in charge wants to really go through with this, they need to ask around and try and figure out what needs to get done. It's likely that if Toys-for-bob wants to work on it but can't, then you can ask them but they are not who need's to be convinced. It seems like the people in charge don't want to make sc3 and obviously think its a waste of time and resources, so someone would likely need to just buy licensing for it. They might try to rip you off, they might say "eh what the hell, just take it", but most likely they would charge a lot of money for the licensing.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 05:07:30 pm by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2012, 05:07:03 pm »

Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.

This says nothing about your experience in game design.

Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea?

Angry Birds was based off of a flash game which itself was based off of another game. Angry Birds didn't succeed because it was a super-awesome idea; it succeeded because they implemented it well (and had a little luck).

There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on [Angry Birds] and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

You talk like an expert, but you have this distorted vision of how game design works. It's the same vision I had back when I went by the alias "jaychant" (I was 13-14 at that time). Try searching "amber the dragon" on the Game Maker Community. That was my "amazing" game idea which, predictably, no one was interested in. Of course, if I had offered to pay people, you know, real wages, probably something you're doing, they would have suddenly been interested in it (assuming I payed well). I would be, too, if someone else did the same thing.

Hey, while we're on the subject of my old ideas I had as a stupid kid, why aren't you stealing my idea of "Amber the Dragon"? After all, as you say, ideas are oh so valuable.

There was one particular idea I kept to myself. This idea was of a space exploration game where the environment is 3D and there are no cutscenes or anything taking away from the gameplay, and lots of things you can do, without any particular direction. Oh, and an MMORPG, though I didn't know of the genre at the time. Guess what was made maybe a year later? Evochron Renegades. It exactly fits the idea I had then. In other words, my idea wasn't so special after all.

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed and to investigate the subject. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it.

The owner of everything is Toys For Bob. The owner of the name Star Control is Atari. Why do you keep acting like these are unknowns?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 05:10:51 pm by onpon4 » Logged

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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2012, 05:13:38 pm »

Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.

This says nothing about your experience in game design.

Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea?

Angry Birds was based off of a flash game which itself was based off of another game. Angry Birds didn't succeed because it was a super-awesome idea; it succeeded because they implemented it well (and had a little luck).

There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on [Angry Birds] and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

You talk like an expert, but you have this distorted vision of how game design works. It's the same vision I had back when I went by the alias "jaychant" (I was 13-14 at that time). Try searching "amber the dragon" on the Game Maker Community. That was my "amazing" game idea which, predictably, no one was interested in. Of course, if I had offered to pay people, you know, real wages, probably something you're doing, they would have suddenly been interested in it (assuming I payed well). I would be, too, if someone else did the same thing.

Hey, while we're on the subject of my old ideas I had as a stupid kid, why aren't you stealing my idea of "Amber the Dragon"? After all, as you say, ideas are oh so valuable.

I only ever kept one idea to myself. This idea was of a space exploration game where the environment is 3D and there are now cutscenes or anything taking away from the gameplay, and lots of things you can do, without any particular direction. Oh, and an MMORPG, though I didn't know of the genre at the time. Guess what was made maybe a year later? Evochron. It exactly fits the idea I had then. In other words, my idea wasn't so special after all.

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed and to investigate the subject. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it.

The owner of everything is Toys For Bob. The owner of the name Star Control is Atari. Why do you keep acting like these are unknowns?

I'm pretty sure I don't have a distorted view of game design, I know exactly what your saying by "you need to work on it in order for it to make money" and "there are a fw other games like it", but various successful games get "reused" all the time, and I understand that, but there are plenty of people who can steal ideas who also have the capacity to make them, and that's what makes  ideas valuable. If an idea is too much work, THEN maybe it's worthless. If you had an idea for a game that was so large you couldn't find any1 to work on it, THEN the idea is worthless because it has no capacity to be completed, but if you have an idea that could make thousands of dollars and might take only a month to complete, then its valuable, and most ideas people come up with are simple enough to be completed in logical time periods and are within range of people who have the capability to finish it even if they don't know those people.
In fact, one of my friends had an idea for a zombie adventure game but made the mistake of ONE TIME talking about the idea in public at a bar, and some lady overheard it and said something like "that sounds like a good idea, I'll see if one of my friends are interested in it", and like a month later, there's a stupid zombie adventure game that's not even as good as what he'd planned that had made a lot of money on kickstarter.
I don't care who's in-charge of licensing for using all the products, just ask them. Even if toys doesn't own the name, ask them anyway. Just ask around, but you will likely end up having to pay money for licensing, so kick-starter is a good idea, but be careful with it. I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.
It's just very likely that within the select group of people who decide to make games at toys have disagreement on it, so it's likely just not going to be done. There's probably people on that group who just plain think it's done for and there's no point bringing it back.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 05:24:41 pm by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2012, 06:05:51 pm »

I'm pretty sure I don't have a distorted view of game design

By what you say in this post, I am 100% certain that you do. I see there's just no convincing you, though, so carry on with your delusions.

I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.

Yeah, Toys For Bob knows about SC2, but why are you acting as if it's obscure? SC2 was very well-received and has a sizable cult following.
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2012, 06:41:13 pm »

The fact that I know all of these facts that you can't possibly learn by googling should be enough, and definitely doesn't warrant rudeness.

And I, my grandmother and Godzilla created the universe in three days. The fact that I know this fact you can't possibly google should be enough for you to ... worship me ... so do it! Oh yes and I also know the actual rules of Frungy. At this point your validity is just as unquestionable as mine.

All I asked for is some concrete evidence of your activity, first because I'm interested, secondly because you said that your activity makes your point valid. "I could reference you to prey 1 and 2" can mean a lot of things, including keeping the floor clean while development is going on, but I don't (and didn't) make such assumptions about your experience. But hell if that was a bullseye you can send a picture with a clean floor on it, just make it obvious that it was taken at Human-Head.

I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.

Yeah, Toys For Bob knows about SC2, but why are you acting as if it's obscure? SC2 was very well-received and has a sizable cult following.

As I said:
Quote
the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=APV_caBjO60 (17:45)
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Re: Kickstarter?
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2012, 06:48:15 pm »

Maybe the people who you trust to "design" the star control mod should be people like Celtic, but I know how the business works because I'm in that business.
I really don't think you want to have me say "I told you so" when my company finishes a successful game which can easily get a sponsorship for over 5,000 dollars that I can link to just for it looking good, and 5,000 isn't even optimistic for a very good flash game and we aren't even only working on flash games. There's people who have salaries of over 50,000 dollars off this whole flash industry who aren't even particularly famous in any way. This isn't some "dream" thing, this is if you work hard and think things through, you will make money, there's nothing particularly optimistic or dreamy about what I am saying.

I don't have a link specifically to what I worked, partly because I never needed to and partly because human head has copyright on all the art and coding, all I can say right now is the fact that I know how these things means I have some experiences, I don't know how else I could know these things because google certainly doesn't give you all this.
Do you find it illogical or completely wrong to ask toys and activision and whoever else is involved about this and use kickstarter to pay  for licensing as long as you are careful? Because otherwise your disrespect is pointless. I never asked you to worship anyone, I made a logical point that people would be wise to follow or prepare for. There is a high probability you will have to pay a large sum of money for licensing, and since it may be illegal to make a product you are currently working on, I would suggest directing kickstarter money into buying licensing if you investigate that far rather than quitting your job and getting sued. It's a small chance you would get sued only this far into the project, especially considering there's under 3,000 members. If you buy the license, depending on the license you may be able to sell the game to make money or put in adds, but that will probably make it less cool.

In the event that the original developers want to make something, they can probably re-use all the coding as was said before, but still have to buy a license to keep the name. By the video it looks like Fred and Reiche aren't directing so much energy towards star control. People like them can announce ideas publicly because they have the resources to compete with anyone who would try to steal it and have already started working on this "secret" project.
Maybe Celtic could even contact  those guys and tell them they are already working on it, and they can try and buy licensing together, or it might be possible they are already trying to save up money to buy the licensing. Either way, asking around is good idea.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 07:11:17 pm by dathinvaderzim » Logged
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