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Author Topic: The New Alliance Ships  (Read 21333 times)
JonoPorter
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2003, 09:41:43 am »


my idea of the ship editors checking would consist of values of the components of the parts. a longer range price goes up. lower crew price goes down.  range and speed would be a multiplier or exponential. And I would have special if statements for combination of primary and secondary. FAF missle plus cloak increases price greatly. And so on. The program doesn’t design the ship just calculates its value.
and makes it easyer to make one as well.
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Death 999
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2003, 10:04:00 pm »

Quote
I am pretty sure there is no such thing as a genetic algorithm.  Have you ever written a line of code? Because your techno non-sense makes me want to smack you.


I am a professional computer programmer. I wrote the simulation my thesis in physics was based on in C++; I usually work in Java. So Yeah, I know that computers only follow instructions. I guess I didn't explain the basic concept.

*ahem*
Now that we've got our respective rants out of the way, let ME explain.
Genetic algorithms exist. One of my classmates used a genetic algorithm for his thesis project. They were featured in Scientific American last month, which did a fairly decent job of explaining the simpler aspects of them.
But what is a genetic algorithm?
A genetic algorithm is a design tool by which you can arrange to have created a design for something, without designing it yourself.
First, you create a system of design components - the classic example is a programmable gate array.
Then you create a random stream of settings for these design components (the genetic code)
You make lots of these streams (a population with varied genetic code).
You then build the system for each stream (compile the code).
You evaluate them partially and see which ones perform closer to specified behavior (in this case, kicking ass in melee).
Then you have them behave as a biological population would - each code, based on its performance, can be duplicated; have digital meiosis with another bit of code (have 'sex') by exchanging design components; be mutated (changing parameters or types of design components randomly); or die off.
Then you evaluate the new population again. Repeat the evaluation and population management steps.


For a simple task, it may take only ten generations to get specified behavior. However, the design will probably look rather different than one designed by a human. When this technique was applied to programmable gate arrays to make a digital multiplier, NO ONE could figure out how the heck the thing worked. Yet it used only 4/5 of the transistors that the best human-designed digital multiplier did, and it worked all the time for all combinations of input.

SO! In order to make this work, we would need to describe what the 'genetic code' would look like. This will be the hardest part.
We need an architecture that will never crash no matter how weirdly you put it together AND is flexible enough to have a chance in hell of working.

We might want to use a neural network kind of arrangement, or perhaps even a Slylandro-probe style priority system, with randomly generated behaviors having random priorities with random weighing mechanisms... and evolving them from there.

SO... do you see?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 10:06:40 pm by Death_999 » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2003, 10:16:41 pm »

This is what I love with forum chats. You learn something new every day. Thank you Flewellyn for your AI comments. I'd actually heard about hte array gate system, but it was a pleasant surprise to find it incorporated here, along with a better explanation than the one I read for it.

Bioslayer, the issue here is not if we can make a program that simply subtracts weapons strength if your too fast, or allows us to add crew when your turning rate is lowered enough. Everyone accepts that this is possible. What we're talking about is a sytem that can accurately judge the ship, not just based on their power quantities in different areas, but on the qualities of their tactsics, the usefulness of gravity whips with said ship, the tactical advantage of steroids with that ship, what the teleporting abilities add strategy wise, this kind of thing. You can't rate anything on just sheer power. In that case David could never have beaten Goliath.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2003, 10:21:53 pm »

He had a high powered ranged weapon - that seems pretty solid to me. However, I agree in principle. How would a computer rate the Arilou without actually trying it out? Heck - how would WE rate it without trying it out?

The answer is: don't try to rate ships that haven't been tested extensively.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 10:22:57 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2003, 10:26:36 pm »

Yes, but that's my point. The traditional rating system of muscle mass, length, armor, gigantic club, arm reach and so on would all have spoken in favour of goliath. (compare these to BioSlayers editor with the standard movement, weapon strength, crew, turning rate and so on). But a new element was introduced into the equation, that hte system didn't know about.

Result, the high ranker loses (compare the slingshot to oh, for instance teleport or any other exotic weapon of choice).
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2003, 12:18:46 am »

This all is fascinating, but it seems to me to be asking for a change in the very nature of starcontrol. The ships displayed the personality of the races. That was what made the game fun. While I'm sure there was experimenting on the basis of "too powerfull, let's criple it on turning ratio/too weak let's speed it up" I'm sure the most of the ships started with "Let's make a race of space vixons who make other ship's crew step out for a smoke break."
It sounds to me like this discussion is asking to change the fundamental idea behind starcontrol and change it into more of an "impossible creatures in space". Which is fine. Infact, I'd love to see these ideas implimented, especally the whole genetic code generation as discussed above, but in a different game entirely. Maybe the world is finally ready for this type of game. (Personally I found IC too "free" for me. I always felt I was "trying out" a new combination, and never focusing on the stragety that I like, but oh well.)
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2003, 01:01:19 am »

Well, As far as I'M concerned, this whole idea of mix-and-match is really lame. I'd much rather have, in new ship designs, new concepts. So a new ship thread is fine - but they won't be Furies that shoot Photon Crystals...
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2003, 01:02:40 am »

Umm... sorry, but I think your missing the point completely Guesst. Look at SC1. What is it?it is a game of one side versus the other with a lot of different ships fighting. There is a small background story for every race, but nothing major. You never talked to the races, or got to know anything else about them They didn't flesh out the races very much, it was just a collection of ships. How does the Umgah ship represent their humour? How does the Yehat ship represent their honour? How does the Mycon ship represent their general weirdness? How does the VUX ship represent xenophobia? And so on. The races in SC2 may have been written to the races to a greater extent, but that's still a maybe.

And if you want to, you can make up a racial profile for every melee ship you construct. I know they do over at TW, for at least part of the time.

The whole idea of making the ships is, to if possible incorporate a racial fit yes, but mainly to make for a balanced and fun melee. I mean, you don't think its a coincidence all the ships are well balanced, do you? What we are discussing here is the importance of balance new ships, wetehr they come with a racial profile or not.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2003, 01:10:06 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2003, 01:40:31 am »

Actually, they thought of SC2 when they made SC1. That's why you can see SC2 races on the code-wheel of SC1.

I don't know if that's the way it went, but it seems natural that TFB thought of the whole concept, differentiating the melee from the main game, and making a pre-release - the melee SC1 game. "If this catches on, we'll make number two!"..
Also, they mention that SC1 is as if a trainer for Alliance pilots.. Just like a good trilogy, they (well except for part 3 that never came out), they pre-designed and thought about the main concept and storyline prior to SC1.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2003, 02:03:47 am »

From the conversation with the creators:

<Fwiffo> The thraddash were on the wheel in SCI.  It's origins are clouded in mystery.

doesn't sound much like preplanning to me. also, I have to say I find it hard to believe that they'd plan all the races fro SC2 and then only put a few of them in SC1, determined to use the rest "if the first game went alright". If it hadn't, they'd have wasted a huge amount of planning...

although, as usual, I could be wrong.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2003, 02:14:09 am »

<Inging> <Churten:#STarControl-chat> question: does the word 'Dynarri' intentionally bear resembelance to the ancient monetary unit?
<Fwiffo> About the Dnyarri: I read everything and forget almost all of it immediately.  Then, later and often in the shower, these words bubble up out of my subconscious.  Where do they come from?  I don't know!

This probably was the cause of many of the new race names in SC2, especially since the words on the code-wheel were supposed to be answers to etiquette questions.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2003, 03:32:34 am »

Much better than my quote Cukture20, thanks for the backup.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2003, 04:48:21 am »

now that i'v recieved a proper SMACK DOWN by death_999 i wish to speak.

also now that i have the basic jist of a genetic thingymajig i would seem that it would be cool, but overdoing it. like making disposible plates out of stone. but that of coarse is my opinion
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2003, 09:27:21 pm »

Well, it might be the only realistic way of MAKING a high quality AI in such a freeform environment. Chess is one thing - Star Control is much harder... for a computer at any rate.
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Re: The New Alliance Ships
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2003, 09:52:52 pm »

I tend to agree that a genetic process would make for the best way to do this.

The "genetic code" would need three parts:

1) a list of ALL possible actions the ship could take (this could be either generic or ship-specific) coupled with the probability of performing each action

2) a "sensor array" that monitored the conditions on the battlefield in a fair amount of detail (again, if it's general enough the smae one could be used for every ship)

3) a "converter" that would adjust the probabilities of each action based on the "sensor array" input.  The converter would also specifiy the initial probabilities, and a few things such as the first two Glory Device switches could be hard-coded a little bit.

At each moment, the AI would read sensor input, adjust probabilities, and make a randomly selected action.

We create a large population of random "converters" for EVERY SHIP TYPE simultaneously.  Then we run simulations.  Converters that win get to "breed," and the more crew you have left the more breeding you get to do.  (This breeding should also have a purely random element to allow for mutations.)

Thus we would evolve a better AI.  There are only two problems that I can see:

1) even if the evolution is successful, the more detailed the "sensor array" and "converter" are teh more calculations will be required each nanosecond.  This could be difficult to use.

2) The glory device throws a kink in our "winners get to breed" scheme.  We'd have to figure out some other victory parameters for the Shofixti.
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