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Topic: Are shofixty too racist? (Read 11337 times)
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Kwayne
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Your friend is a moron. (Though I have no reason believing he/she even exists)
The Shofixti design is NOT racist, it doesn't propagate hostile sentiments nor harmful misconceptions towards any race of people. I guess fans had plenty of opportunity to discuss this accusation ad nauseum every time someone yanked out the racist card, but here are some of my thoughts:
The Shofixti design is just as "offensive" as the Druuge, Pkunk or Ilwrath, yet I don't see too many people championing the sensitivities of corporate entities, youth movements or religious groups. This is because anti-racism rants gain unquestioning moral support quicker than any other concern in our time. Jumping on this bandwagon became the trend ever since Hitler got his ass kicked, crying out "racism" became a popular way among self-important idiots posturing as progressive thinkers. onpon4 is right, the Yehat has references to the Scots similar in nature to those of the Shofixti. They have an easily distinguishable scottish accent -- something you wouldn't even need an education to recognize -- while there's no such thing as a "Western European accent". If you're ignorant about a subject, you come off better with admitting it rather than making shit up.
Yes, the Shofixti design has Japanese references buildt around a stereotype perpetuated in pacific war flicks, but that stereotype has nothing to do with Japanese culture in general and only portrays Japanese fighter pilots as mouthy maniacs. It's a perception propagated in wartime, when it's normal to demonize the enemy.
In Star Control 2 the stereotype was used because in the relative peacetime everyone with the minimum mental capacity of a 5 year old knew that it itself is outdated and ridiculous, and no one -- with the exception of those with an urge to mount a nonexistent moral high horse -- would think that it's the developers' actual perception rather than what it actually is: a mockery of a silly old stereotype. It's in because it's fun, and is neither harmful nor bigoted nor insulting in the context of a videogame with some furry little dudes coming from the planet "Cabbage" awaiting the arrival of a legendary hero named "Radish".
Neither in the original SC2 or in UQM the font used for Shofixti dialogue are asian styled characters. If you want to ask why UQM-HD has an asian-like inkstroke font for the Shofixti, ask dczanik about that, maybe he choose that font out of bigoted anti-japanese hatred.
The 3DO version of the game was dubbed in Japan and no one raised one single eyebrow about the Shofixti content there. Maybe because they're grownups who have more serious business than playing a resentful princess routine over some talking rats.
The Shofixti design isn't original, so what? Originality is overrated, and it isn't either a strong point of Star Control, nor should it be. The distinctness of Star Control is the result of PR3's masterful wielding of unoriginal ideas often borrowed from other media of pop and geek culture. Star Control deals in what it's target audience -- meaning people with interests similar to those of PR3 -- are familiar with and that includes harmless stereotypes. It's possible to create depth in the Shofixti concept while embracing the "Japanese" aspect, but toning it down is merely an attempt to fix something that isn't broken, and achieves nothing more than turning the Shofixti into non-Shofixti. Anyone whose goal is to override the original concepts of SC1-2 is a heretic, an enemy of Star Control and should have their head stuck on a spearhead.
Above all, if you don't like the content then don't play the game. Also if you don't like the content, don't write plot for it, or at least don't bother the Star Control fans with it.
I for one am not interested in the concerns of crybabies smartassing about things they can't even spell right.
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FakeMccoy
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I don't know what you're so unnecessarily hostile about, you have no right to call anyone a moron, especially people you don't know. Though I don't believe it was completely intentional by the writers of SC2, it was fine in SC2 since the Shofixty culture was not largely defined but seemed to be over-exaggerated and continued the stereotypical views instead of making the Shofixty more unique in p6014, which as you know is not completed yet and can be changed. As I said before, it's possible to have an honorable seeming race without building that strongly off of Japanese culture.
And if you hadn't noticed, the war is over, the Japanese aren't fighting anyone, we should be getting rid of those stereotypes by now anyway as every army in the world has those who would rather sacrifice themselves and destroy their enemy. The Japanese only gained that stereotype because they were an enemy of the United States who at the time and possibly still has the most advanced and prosperous advertising and multi-media capacities while the Japanese had a particular method that they preferred to sacrifice themselves by ramming their airplanes in other enemy planes ships or bases and create large explosions.
You also said that none of the star control series uses Asian style text, but guess what? I googled "Japanese style text" and this was one of the first things that came up http://evilbrainjono.net/blog?permalink=547 which is very similar to the text that i see the Shofixty currently have. It even says on that page "I am proud of my total ignorance of Chinese culture. Or maybe Japanese culture. Not that I would know the difference." and even goes on to say "People, it's time to stop using curvy triangles to signify Asian-ness."
And then on top of all of that you try to say "Originality is overrated" when originality is exactly one of the main components that makes star control such a great game.
People wouldn't have to "raise eyebrows" in Japan because the Japanese businessmen/women were not eager to make a fuss about race like most business people in the entire world, which does not rule out their possible dislike of the stereotypes.
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 01:43:46 am by FakeMccoy »
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Kwayne
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I don't even think your friend exists, and my experience with my japanese colleagues -- grown men -- completely differs from yours, however you have equal right to disbelieve the existence of my colleagues, so building your points on how heartbroken your friend is kind of doesn't matter AT ALL on a forum where such things cannot be verified. With the same effort I could say I have God on my side with the power of being more right than you are no matter what you say because he's fucking GOD for Christ's sake -- omnipotent and shit -- so you lose, I won and now get the fuck out! Problem is I don't believe in such a tactic as it's a sign of dishonesty, and the only thing you achieve with using it is that now you strike me as a dishonest person, the type I don't like -- therefore the hostility.
But hey I accept that everybody regardless of their nationality is a unique person, and if your friend really exists he's on different opinions from my theoretically existing colleagues, which then means he is a unique moron because getting insulted over a VIDEO GAME where one of the most valuable GOOD GUYS of the plot are buildt around some cultural and historical references and a stereotype nobody takes seriously is MORONIC. It takes a below-average intellect, an overly comfortable life and a lot of free time to develop such PETTY concerns. However as I said I believe your friend is merely an imaginary extension of yourself, therefore when I say he/she is a moron I really mean YOU are a moron. Glad we clarified that.
No sensible adult believes people will be so butthurt over mere resemblances, and the design of the Shofixti was completely intentional from their very conception. Even in SC1, the Shofixti Scout had captains named in Japanese, and it was a cheap spacecraft whose best tactic to deal damage was to blow itself up. It's based on the kamikaze war tactic, where self sacrificing aerial units were formed to perform special tasks, though those IJAAF and IJN pilots rammed their target instead of blowing themselves up. I can also say your point about every army having self-sacrificing "heroes" is very very weak. In our culture, the Japanese are associated with the kamikaze war tactic, because the only naval/air force that ever utilised officially formed suicide task forces of fanatics in history is that of the Empire of Japan. Pilots of other nations might jump to their deaths to save their homeland, but only in Japan they did on command, in an organized manner (though crashing a fighter nowadays would cause a smaller economic crisis) -- therefore the connection with japanese culture, which was further embraced in SC2, when the music was made, and later when spoken dialogue was made for the 3DO version.
I know the war is over, the problem is that YOU still don't understand that the survival of a stereotype is not the continuation of the war it's associated with. YOU are the problem. As many memes, this stereotype survived while it's perception changed in peacetime. Now it doesn't do any harm to anybody, nor is it bigoted. It's so old most people don't know where it comes from, and people who know does NOT take it seriously. Know why? It's an important testament of our past, where such SILLY beliefs existed. Same as Noah's Ark or the geocentric world view: harmless and stupid. It doesn't mean we should eradicate these concepts, we can still use them for our amusement. As subjects of our amusement we can remind ourselves that these beliefs should not be taken seriously. Therefore the stereotype is not an insult to anybody, it's a mockery of itself. All is a matter of CONTEXT. So why get rid of it? Just so our culture degrades to a politically correct fantasyworld where everything is, was and forever be all flowers and butterflies? That's what you want? A generation of degenerates who can only access unfunny, uninteresting sanitized content and don't know where we come from and will repeat all the retarded hate and violence because they're unaware of what they're supposed to feel amused about? I suspect you want something like that, sir, because "feeling insulted" is nowadays a trendy excuse to justify conflict, something you so desperately seek with your half-baked arguments. It does not matter if they make any sense as long as they create a "debate" like this, which you started only to pat yourself on your shoulders for being such an intelligent, likeable and morally superior person.
No official game in the Star Control series has asian inkstroke fonts, only UQM-HD has it which is Damon Czanik's (dczanik here) PERSONAL project for UQM. UQM-HD is not even part of the official development, it's a MOD, and P6014 is a MOD sequel developed in parallel. Damon is the head honcho of both UQM-HD and P6014 art now. The only thing his choice of font type has to do with the Shofixti is that he tried to embrace the asian aspect of the design. To clarify, I don't agree with him. I should have told him (maybe I did) not to use that font, not because it's "too asian" (because it's not -- it's pseudo-mock-asian at best) but because there is a plethora of fonts that look way more asian, and the ORIGINAL font doesn't look like any of them. But maybe you should learn to read before having any ambition to write, I already pointed out who you should contact about the fonts. It's Damon Czanik, your "boss" in P6014. Tell HIM how much a racist scumbag he is, I'll sit back waiting for the results.
About originality in SC, your drivel of fake enthusiasm reveals only that you really don't have any idea what you say. Check http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Influences_and_references
References are the lifeblood of Star Control, which makes it necessarily unoriginal. But that's how that should be! Originality is terribly overrated, and because critics use the word as a compliment, masses believe it's some sort of magical quality that turns everything better. Not at all. In the case of Star Control, concepts are very simple and familiar to anyone. Playing GAMES are not supposed to require a diploma, a Nobel Peace Award, a political agenda or a specific moral mindset. It is supposed to be fun, and gaming is not fun when the brain has to deal with alien concepts all along. An original element in a concept has no connection with your real life, teaches you nothing about it, means nothing to you as a person and therefore is not nearly as valuable as a basic, core idea. Most SC races are buildt around basic stereotypes and moral challenges, because they are part of a human test. The Shofixti concept is simple: they resemble whatever the popular understanding of Japanese people is + they are incredibly fertile and focused on reproduction. That's it. But why is that? Do you think Tanaka resembles an old, crazy Japanese soldier still fighting WWII because of an attempt to spread hate and discrimination against japanese people, or maybe because the japanese are HUMAN and you have to cope with a very human situation to get further in that particular puzzle dealing with an "alien"? Do you think the fertility of the Shofixti implies that the japanese are somewhat biologically-socially undesireable, or maybe that ability is required as the reward for your extra work and morally positive decision? How would you recognize the solution of a REALLY original puzzle without anyone pointing to the correct direction? How would following that direction be a challenge?
It's funny how you think Japanese businessmen have such an inferior moral fabric to yours, sir. Not only that, but you also imply that Japanese businessmen in general are passively condoning racism and therefore are morally inferior to businessmen of anywhere else. YOU ARROGANT, RACIST FUCK! You even dehumanize businessmen by saying it's all just their fault, not including japanese gamers in the picture who didn't raise any eyebrows either. Here's a few reasons why:
1) in Japan, there are a shit ton of popular media content where antropomorphic animals behave japanese
2) in Japan, they ADOPT foreign media content where antropomorphic animals behave japanese
3) in Japan, people spend much more valuable time working/studying instead of detecting racism in video games with a magnifying lens
4) in Japan, popular media often satirize japanese customs, historical events and the attitudes of different japanese social groups, as well as foreign ones by using stereotypes
Star Control 2 is something that could have been made in JAPAN. It was like everything else in Japanese media, so why feel insulted about it? They don't know what the stereotype means, and if they know they laugh about it, or just don't care, except in the western world where self-proclaimed saints and obnoxiously overtly sensitive people are waiting behind every corner to make everybody else feel sour about playing a game.
Nevertheless, you're free to try tuning down the Japanese in the Shofixti in Project 6014, but you won't do any REAL Star Control fan any service with a non-Shofixti Shofixti. You'll do it ONLY for yourself. Overriding the original concepts you'll do EXACTLY the same crap Legend did with Star Control 3. For that no SC fan will give you any indorsement, and you shouldn't expect anyone give any applause or encouragement to you. I think this is about your EGO, you're just putting up a smokescreen with your fake loving-caring concerns, so you can feel yourself free to meddle with something according to a vision only you care about.
BTW Want to see REAL racism in games? Google "Ethnic Cleansing", or "Romanii in Spatiu". The latter is a romanian space shooter where you have to kill gypsies and hungarians (a.k.a. Kwayne = me). THAT is real racism, REAL negative implications towards different people and REAL suggestion of hatred and fucking genocide, not a space adventure where your FRIENDS have a superficial resemblance to a silly stereotype.
Anyway, what's your problem with people expressing how much they don't care about something that doesn't have any connection with their everyday life? That is racism too? Not giving a shit? You need some real problems, man. Maybe a life, perhaps a job, or a girlfriend.
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 08:01:51 pm by Kwayne »
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FakeMccoy
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I didn't read your post as I have been informed you are not worth listening to. Good luck with life.
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:25:34 pm by FakeMccoy »
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Alvarin
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You are misinformed. It is a good read.
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danzibr
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I still maintain the Shofixti are only racist against Ur-Quan.
But to throw my two cents in, while it is clear the Shofixti are the epitome of certain east Asian stereotypes, I wouldn't say their existence is racist by the designers. It might be racist if they said, "Hey, every Japanese person is like a Shofixti." Which they don't.
I've interacted with a good few Japanese people and I can't see any of them being offended by what the Shofixti are in SC2. I suppose it just takes one to be offended, though. Then again, Japan has plenty of stereotypes about Americans, and I don't get offended when I hear them.
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onpon4
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Japanese stereotypes of Americans are funny.
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FakeMccoy
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I still maintain the Shofixti are only racist against Ur-Quan.
But to throw my two cents in, while it is clear the Shofixti are the epitome of certain east Asian stereotypes, I wouldn't say their existence is racist by the designers. It might be racist if they said, "Hey, every Japanese person is like a Shofixti." Which they don't.
I've interacted with a good few Japanese people and I can't see any of them being offended by what the Shofixti are in SC2. I suppose it just takes one to be offended, though. Then again, Japan has plenty of stereotypes about Americans, and I don't get offended when I hear them.
I wouldn't say the Japanese person who I showed it to was "offended" and angry, but it was definitely awkward, and if I remember correctly there was even a somewhat Asian sounding voice-over. The Japanese were still known for their kamakazi pilots during the world war and he could easily see how the Shofixty's self destruct device combined with the font he saw in p6014 and Asain style of the Shofixty dress in p6014 that the Shofixty emulated some type of stereotypical view of Japanese culture. We should at least get rid of the curvy triangle font and proceed to tone it down somewhat. It's not like it's a massive change, and it's not like SC2 is going to be changed.
Japanese stereotypes of Americans are funny.
I think it was a low blow for them to make the US one of the first countries to "bow down" to Light in deathnote, I mean the US still has the most advanced military technology in the world, but it's like I'm "offended" by Japan, but it's something sort of illogical that was clearly meant to be some kind of little stereotypical insult that doesn't particularly make the show better. And then there's other stuff, but there's also I think "Kung-Fu Hustle" or some kind of fighting movie with Jet Lee who faces an American fighter that is literally 300 pounds of muscle and is very slow, as if Americans have a "too much muscle" problem, which was almost a compliment if he weren't so damn slow. But I suppose a general unhealthy diet would lead to a decrease in IQ which I thought I saw an article about at some point.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 03:08:26 am by FakeMccoy »
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danzibr
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I could see how that would be awkward.
American: Dude I love this game! And it finally got an HD update! AND IT'D GETTING A WORTHY SEQUEL!
Nihonjin: That sounds awesome! Let's play it!
*play the game, get to Shofixti*
Nohonjin: ...
American: ...
It'd be like getting my wife to play it... then getting to the sex scene.
Were the situation reversed (Japanese person showing me something he/she likes with heavy Americsn stereotypes) I'd surely laugh.
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FakeMccoy
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Well I think Japanese culture like Spanish culture and German culture and Tibetan culture and Laotian and many Middle Eastern cultures (though formalities in Germany seem to be decreasing) is still somewhat formal they don't necessarily have the loose comedy of everything that somehow the US incorporated into their daily life, and so a fully Japanese person who was born and raised in Japan would be more likely to find it awkward. Whereas a Japanese descendant raised in the US would be use to that type of comedy and have plenty of things to make fun of Americans as a way to sort of balance it out.
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Kwayne
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I didn't read your post as I have been informed you are not worth listening to. Good luck with life.
You'd think so until you found out just why project 6014 was stalled and mainly why the author collaboration fell apart. My guess is he tried to act childishly offensive again in the post, again for little reason which is against the forum rules anyway. I'm surprised he's not banned yet, he seems like some copy of another troll I found while I was browsing through the forums.
You're not reading my post but you GUESS what it is? Wow that's a great way to address opposing views. Not surprised though, most of your content on this forum is guesswork only, which is already a good enough reason for harshness. Dismissing others won't make your case stronger.
I know where the P6014 story comes from, and it's just a one sided fairytale. Plot development didn't fall apart, it was disfunctional all along -- and it's nonexistent at the present merely because someone had to sweep away a determined writer (that's me) and the estabilished premises of p6014 out of cheap personal disfavor (I didn't bend over for every assrape I was requested to receive). The real story is much longer, but off topic. (Buy my autobiography if you care  )
I wouldn't say the Japanese person who I showed it to was "offended" and angry, but it was definitely awkward, and if I remember correctly there was even a somewhat Asian sounding voice-over. The Japanese were still known for their kamakazi pilots during the world war and he could easily see how the Shofixty's self destruct device combined with the font he saw in p6014 and Asain style of the Shofixty dress in p6014 that the Shofixty emulated some type of stereotypical view of Japanese culture. We should at least get rid of the curvy triangle font and proceed to tone it down somewhat. It's not like it's a massive change, and it's not like SC2 is going to be changed.
About the font we kind of agree, the problem is still you taking stereotypes as unambiguously bad. They're not, and twisting a design out of it's original form because you have 1 person who felt "awkward" is kind of an overreaction. SC2 won't be changed by it, yes, but as I said you won't do any service to the estabilished community with your priorities driven by political ideals. The dress of Hiroku has resemblance to chinese designs, combined with a heraldic symbol that resembles japanese clan emblems. I didn't draw Hiroku to offend anyone, I did it because I respect the japanese and chinese cultures so I wanted to pay an homage by embracing their designs into the imagery of the race they most appropriately belong to. To say that it's racist is a personal insult to me, and completely missing the point of a simple aesthetical choice. Even I don't know where it exactly comes from, but most possibly here:
I think it was a low blow for them to make the US one of the first countries to "bow down" to Light in deathnote, I mean the US still has the most advanced military technology in the world, but it's like I'm "offended" by Japan, but it's something sort of illogical that was clearly meant to be some kind of little stereotypical insult that doesn't particularly make the show better.
Then read with the stereotype-detector goggles off.
Literature as well as reality doesn't operate by rigid logic. With President Silas (or Sairas) declaring capitulation and full support to Kira, the authors intent was to convey that even the most powerful entity amongst mortals cannot stand against anyone with power over life and death. That notion further shows the reader the sheer weight of the challenge the protagonist faces, and it is indeed effective and makes the show absolutely better. It is an interesting coincidence that with among the highest rates of religiosity in the first world the US is already submitting itself to a judgemental abrahamic God (despite it's constitution), but the US is not a specific target for stereotyping here. Would the Soviet Union or the British Empire be in the same position power-wise, Tsugumi Ouba would have used them instead. One could propose using a fictional county, but that wouldn't be as effective either, because it would weaken the relation of the reading audience to the world of the books.
Anyway, what onpon4 meant is probably like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QMH8Tof69SE&t=37
... or this (I loved this episode so much): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9MbdbqEZn7E
Kung Fu Hustle was one of Stephen Chow's Hong Kong flicks, not a single american there.
But the case of the "muscle problem" of "american" fighters vs the famously tiny Jet Lee is very similar. It's a mere cautionary tale of David and Goliath, telling that blowing up your abs and biceps and having a vicious image means little challenge to the discipline, flexibility and balance of martial arts. It has nothing to do with IQ. Muscular characters are not typically american, or even western, though if you work with live action projects and you need brutishly large and pumped chinese or japanese actors I don't envy your task. One of the most muscular characters I can recall who is a particular imbecile is this:
Zangief from Street Fighter
But there is also a character who seems even more dense, almost mindless:
Potemkin from Guilty Gear
Both RUSSIAN, by japanese designers. Now why don't the russians feel "awkward" about depicting them as brainless brutes? Probably because they don't mistake CHARACTERS with NATIONS.
Well I think Japanese culture like Spanish culture and German culture and Tibetan culture and Laotian and many Middle Eastern cultures (though formalities in Germany seem to be decreasing) is still somewhat formal they don't necessarily have the loose comedy of everything that somehow the US incorporated into their daily life, and so a fully Japanese person who was born and raised in Japan would be more likely to find it awkward. Whereas a Japanese descendant raised in the US would be use to that type of comedy and have plenty of things to make fun of Americans as a way to sort of balance it out.
Again, guesswork. Funnily, stereotyping guesswork on top.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 11:35:17 am by Kwayne »
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FakeMccoy
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Well I noticed you were actually mature enough when I glanced over the page that you didn't try and swear every paragraph.
The project may not have been the most cohesive from the start, but I so far have had success creating a story that includes every official race and keeps their key personality traits along with some of their technology, so I'm sure your constant arguing didn't help. On the other hand I was able to compromise with another author pretty easily, and it turned out well.
Secondly, if you'll notice, other people had expressed different views without writing a 1000 word essay or trying to be offensive.
Then, I'm sure p6014 was purposely made with the Shofixty to emulate a to a greater degree the stereotypical view of Japanese culture which obviously I'm not the only one perceiving because otherwise it wouldn't have been built into p6014. Many cultures (of which I know people from by the way) still have formality as a large role and Japan is one of them. It would not be accurate to say Japan likes cats and making fun of itself because it has Hello Kitty advertisements everywhere in Tokyo in the same manner that having KFCs everywhere doesn't mean everyone in the US is from Kentucky or eats fried chicken all the time. And as I said before, the adjustment to humor also depends on where someone was raised, if whether they were use to the loose comedy that countries like the US have.
With regards to death-note I suppose it could be both, because with how the US congress has been acting in the last decade it is somewhat of a stereotype that they act cowardly to protect their careers.
The large muscle men as you say would also further show what I was suggesting, that formality is still important in Japanese culture and they view US culture as being very informal to the point where they even made it a stereotype to point it out the lack of discipline in their non-comedy movies. But like the US they were unaware of some things about the other culture, which is that it even though boxing seems simple it still takes years of training, both in strength training and motion to become a good boxer and it takes a lot of practice for any fighting style to be developed properly.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:31:49 pm by FakeMccoy »
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Alvarin
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@Kwaine - TF2's Heavy is also noticeably Russian. Rocky's big opponent was too, Governator's russian cop character, e.t.c. This stereotype has been used A LOT.
@FakeMcCoy - about responces length - Kwaine is a wrighter, most of the rest of us are not...
The whole thing is a widely used trope in fiction: "Planet of hats". It's where you take one human trait and blow it out of all proportion to represent a nation. In Shofixti's case it was duty. The resulting species turned out to resemble Japanese.
The Druuge are very similar to pre-WW2 antisemitic propoganda's depiction of Jews. You don't see me offended.
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FakeMccoy
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@Kwaine - TF2's Heavy is also noticeably Russian. Rocky's big opponent was too, Governator's russian cop character, e.t.c. This stereotype has been used A LOT.
@FakeMcCoy - about responces length - Kwaine is a wrighter, most of the rest of us are not...
The whole thing is a widely used trope in fiction: "Planet of hats". It's where you take one human trait and blow it out of all proportion to represent a nation. In Shofixti's case it was duty. The resulting species turned out to resemble Japanese.
The Druuge are very similar to pre-WW2 antisemitic propoganda's depiction of Jews. You don't see me offended.
Yeah I'm a writer too, that's why I don't need 1000 words to express simple points.
Anyway as i said before SC2 wasn't going too over the line, though you could still suspect a link to Japanese culture, which was exaggerated in p6014. Not only that as I've been trying to say, other nations have a sense of duty, and if you look at the Klingons they are nothing lie the Japanese or really any particular race of people but still highly value duty. The closest they come to is probably the Spartans, which unlike the Klingons they did not have a complex education system like the Athenians did who still excluded woman, and the Spartans seemed to be more defensive throughout history rather than trying to go about taking over every country.
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