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Author Topic: WAR  (Read 20020 times)
Death 999
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Re: WAR
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2003, 12:47:47 am »

What you just said is largely true but not universal - consider the government of Japan. It was largely set up by the US (we wrote the constitution!) but we were also careful to make sure that the political control shifted onto the Japanese themselves. I do not know the time frame over which this occurred, but it has most distinctly done so.
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Re: WAR
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2003, 01:05:04 am »

But then again, those were Japanese - not Iraqis... People are different, think different, behave differently...

As for Azarules "Final Sidenote":

That is the scariest part about it. Amnesty International should do something about that. How can you be thrown in prison without counsel, reason or what not?
That happened in Germany during the 3rd Reich too, and it is creepy to see it happen in the U.S. now - and nobody speeks up against it!!!
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Re: WAR
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2003, 01:50:06 am »

Agreed. If you start fighting the terrorists with their own weapons, then you have already lost the war. you just haven't realized it yet.
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Re: WAR
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2003, 02:30:11 am »

Just to show you that I haven't lost my sense of humor yet:

President George W. Bush is on a propaganda tour through the U.S. and visits schools to explain his politics and to rally support for his actions.
He visits a 5th grade and the students may ask him questions.

Bob gets up from his desk:
"Mr. President, I have 3 questions for you:
1) How did you win the elections although you haven't received the majority of votes when they were counted?
2) Why do you want to attack Iraq without a real reason?
3) Don't you think that dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was the biggest terrorist attack in history?"

Before the president can answer the bell rings and all the kids run out of the classroom.

After the break, the president again let's the children ask him questions about his politics.

This time it's Joey's turn:
"Mr. President, I have 5 questions for you:
1) How did you win the elections although you haven't received the majority of votes when they were counted?
2) Why do you want to attack Iraq without a real reason?
3) Don't you think that dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was the biggest terrorist attack in history?"
4) Why did the bell ring 20 minutes early today?
5) Where's Bob?"
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Re: WAR
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2003, 03:10:10 am »

Well GM, I have to say, that while that was undoubtedly a very good joke, this is perhaps not quite the time nor place for it, it's stuff like that that usually spark off the shouting and stuff. So to even it out, I'll tell one about the french even though I'm profrenchish, to even it out and make everyone happy:

What do you call a frenchman approaching Bagdad?
A sales rep.
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Re: WAR
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2003, 03:50:15 am »

Oh, LP, I guess you're right!

So, here it goes:

I never intended to insult anyone. I just felt that a good joke could make everyone a little less tense.

I really hope that I didn't provide the spark for everyone to go mad now - we've been peaceful around here and that's the way it should stay  Cheesy
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Re: WAR
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2003, 08:50:16 pm »

Well, looks like you killed the debate at any stage Smiley. oh well, it was very interesting while it lasted...
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Re: WAR
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2003, 09:25:15 pm »

Yeah, LP, now it's back to blaming the German for everything again!  Grin
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Re: WAR
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2003, 11:08:31 pm »

You've just nailed down the ultimate American Paradox.

The majority of the people in western countries think that the greatest threat to world peace lies in George Bush, not in Saddam Hussein or even Osama Bin Laden.

In a democracy, the people are always right... unless lil' Baby Bush doesn't think so, then they're wrong.  As one man told me not long ago, this is a war of two super powers: George Bush and the Public.  Unfortunately, we all know who'll win in the end...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2003, 11:10:22 pm by Omni-Sama » Logged

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Re: WAR
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2003, 02:12:20 am »

Quote
3) Don't you think that dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was the biggest terrorist attack in history?"


IT SAVED LIVES.
think about it japanese live and died with a code of loyalty and honor. when the US captures one of their islands they fought to last man and would commit sucide instead of surrendering. if the US was forced to use ground troops the amount of death would have been worse than anyone would have imagine. there would be no civialions would pick up the arms of fallen solders and continue the fight. even after the second bomb the generals did not want to surrender. it was the emporer who order the surender. for some reason allot of poeple dont want to remeber those facts.
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Re: WAR
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2003, 03:00:54 am »

Furthermore a terrorist attack is an unwarranted attack. That was an openly declared war. What most people don't like to pay attention to is the fact that more people were killed in the fire bombings on Tokyo than by fat man and little boy.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 03:02:17 am by umgahbob » Logged
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Re: WAR
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2003, 03:22:18 am »

Also, Omni-Sama, one crucial fact:

The United States of America is NOT a Democracy.

We are a Republic.

In a democracy every decision is made by popular vote.  In a Republic, we elect people to office and tell them to make the decisions.  So anyone who is not pleased with Bush, well, the American people DID elect him. (and please, don't complain about the Electoral College here, that's how the system works and wether it should work that way is a whole 'nother topic.)
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Re: WAR
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2003, 05:16:07 am »

Quote


IT SAVED LIVES.
think about it japanese live and died with a code of loyalty and honor. when the US captures one of their islands they fought to last man and would commit sucide instead of surrendering. if the US was forced to use ground troops the amount of death would have been worse than anyone would have imagine. there would be no civialions would pick up the arms of fallen solders and continue the fight. even after the second bomb the generals did not want to surrender. it was the emporer who order the surender. for some reason allot of poeple dont want to remeber those facts.


Again, this is the typical U.S. approach on that particular problem. The atom-bombs did not save lifes. They killed civilians. Not as collateral damage - on purpose. Not once, twice.
The argument of saving lives is very one-sided. It may have saved the lives of a lot of G.I.s. The Japanese would have argued "well, if you wan't these islands, there's a price for it to pay: after all, we don't want you here in the first place".
Being a soldier, you run the risk of getting killed in combat on a battle field. That's the risk involved in becoming a soldier. Being blasted away into the void with you whole city is on a much larger scale...
I just think that even though Japan and Germany attacked first, the means of Luftkrieg and the bomb raids against the civilians were beyond the point of righteousness - because they were aimed at the wrong people.

Oh umgahbob, using conventional weapons against civilians makes things better, huh?
Even in an openly declared war, there are always conventions (although usually noboday cares for them once the shooting starts). That more people were killed in the "normal" attacks on the city makes it less bad that so many were wiped out in the nuclear fire?
By the way, I still consider the attacks on the WTC as a terrorist act - but those guys have said openly before they did it that they wanted every American dead. Could be seen as a decleration of war?
[Doesn't state my personal opinion - just a thought!]

As for EL, that's true. Germany is a Federal Republic, and you're stuck with the guys you elected till the next election. (and I won't even start on ranting on the electorial system in the U.S.)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2003, 05:21:13 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: WAR
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2003, 06:02:32 am »

FACTS::
 Dead/Missing Hiroshima: 70,000-80,000 Nagasaki: 35,000-40,000 Tokyo Fire Raid:
83,000
The likely number of casualties the armed forces of the United States would suffer invading Japan was given as 200,000 to a million men

MY OPINION:
thats just the US casualties, not the Japanesse.
let the facts speak if you want to know where i got this
http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/atombomb.shtml
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Re: WAR
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2003, 06:22:58 am »

Again, killing civilians to save soldier's lives (and I don't trust estimates, especially those concerning U.S. wars, at all) is a very sick equasion.

If you're a soldier, too bad, you are a number and cannon fodder. As a civilian, you're supposed to be able to stay out of the atrocities of war.

Sadly enough, the American public seems to forget that since they have never been victim of a full scale air-raid and bombing campaign. Or why was Dresden bombed in the final stage of WWII/Europe?

P.S.: The line you quoted was from a JOKE. Besides, I don't think anyone told the guys in Hiroshima or Nagasaki what was coming - the war was far away and they were only out for "homeland security".
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