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Author Topic: I could just puke!  (Read 22973 times)
stounedi
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2003, 07:59:00 pm »

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And finally, as to the 12 year old:  Ask the thousands killed by Saddam what they did wrong.  Yeah, war sucks and people die.  But I'd rather have a thousand die today to remove Saddam than a hundred die each and every day living under Saddam.  (and, yes, those numbers are made up, but they prove my point.)


And what if it was you getting your hands blown off and your parents killed? It's easy to say, hahaa, Saddam is bad, they like it when we bomb their guts out, they understand we're their friends. Well, mister, why are the Iraqis more united against the coalition then in the gulf war?

Just think. We are again getting hundreds of orphans. Who are easy targets for terrorst organizations... "revenge"... I am afraid the war in Iraq does not end when Saddam is removed.
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2003, 08:16:16 pm »

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Germany attacked in greed for oil and rubber.

USA attacked in greed for oil.


So you're saying that nothing else that occurs during/after the conflict matters? Also, I've never heard the "Hilter wanted oil" argument for the attack on Poland before.
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Death 999
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2003, 09:01:40 pm »

Silesia (a region of Poland) is rich in oil. That was one of the principal reasons he'd want the place.

As for the Iraqi opinion of the Coalition, it's not too hard to find that this is a common sentiment:
1) we hate Saddam
2) if the coalition leaves Iraq promptly, then this has been a great thing
3) if they coalition tries to pressure us, they are evil.
4) if they stick around for a while longer than we'd like but do leave within, say, a year and also they don't keep us from setting up our own government, well, that's OK. Not great, but also certainly not Jihad time.
So, the basic idea is, they're withholding judgement. We still have a chance for things to work out pretty well (note how easy this would be to execute) -- and we also have a chance to royally screw things up (also easy).

Given the administration, I think it's about a 50/50 chance.


Also, this kid whose limbs were blown off... well, what about the kid who would be forced to stand in a room full of water and have someone apply 240V 50Hz AC to points on his body carefully calculated to cause maximum pain?
If your complaints about the war are just the civilian deaths, be sure to subtract out the civilian deaths that not having a war would have caused... and integrate those over time.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 09:04:21 pm by Death_999 » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2003, 09:06:36 pm »

True. Every loss of life in a war should be measured against what would have happened had the war not taken place. Of course, had it not taken place, these deaths would not have helped cement the opinion that the west is evil.

Still, the problem with trying to keep in mind what would've happened if something, is that we can't. Everyone just ends up arguing about it, so as a excersise it is pretty pointless. Still, the war hasn't gone quite the way that the most pro war strategists were advocating, the 3 day war never became reality... As to what will happen now, we shall see.
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2003, 09:35:01 pm »

Thanks for the backup, Death!

As for the "three day war" I never anticipated that...  no one should ever anticipate easy victory, it's jsut stupid.

The way I'm starting to see it all is this:

The stupid war's here, like it or not.  Just quit whining and pray itis over soon.
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2003, 09:43:24 pm »

That's what we're doing. (Well, except not belonging to any religion I can't really pray). And we all realize that the war is here to stay, and there is no way to make it undone. The best course at the mo. is to bring this thing to a swift end, and it can't end until Saddam is defeated now.

However, the fact that we know and accept this doesn't mean we can't argue about it, and the inherent justice in it. If we never learn from history, we'll get nowhere. And when better to learn than while it is actually happening?

Also, I have to say, looking through this topic, that I am impressed. There are a lot of tender subjects in here, and they've all been discussed quite thoroughly, and in a reasonable tone of voice, something one doesn't encounter often...
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2003, 10:41:29 pm »

Germany did not attack Poland to commit genocide on the Polish Jews, they did it, but it was not a goal of the war and operation "Weiss". The genocide and fate of 11 million European Jews was discussed and planned years later during the Wannsee-Conference on January 20th 1942, where the concept of the "Final Solution" took form.
Neither was a main goal the oil in Silesia (what we call "Schlesien") which became part of Poland due to the Versailles Treaty after WWI. It used to be German Territory.
Before WWII, Hitler and Stalin had a secret Treaty in addition to their pact of non-aggression where they decided over the fate of Poland together!
WWII started as a direct result of the restrictions of the Versailles Treaty:
Lost war, lost land, lost prestige, lost influence, lost power, the economy having reached a low before Hitler took over as chancellor... About 1/3 of Germany had been taken away as a result of WWI (And no, we did not start it alone!). There is always more to it than "greed" or "oil"!
I wish you guys would read the history books more carefully, learn from it and not assume so much!
By the way, we received more crude oil from Russia before and during WWII (well, until we attacked them as well) than there would have been available from Poland.

Ereklich, the point I'm trying to bring across to you is this:
We know that Saddam killed innocent people at will, he is a tyrant and maybe an even evil man (I am not the one to judge).
But killing people because your all too trigger-happy troops just don't give a damn or are afraid... that makes the U.S. motives at least questionable, if it doesn't even put them on a similar "evil" level. Evil is who evil does.
Just because "shoot first, ask questions later" worked back in the days in your country doesn't mean that U.S. policy should be applied to the whole world.

As for your bloody hands argument: There is no difference if someone else commits a crime or if you commit a no lesser crime to stop him. Two evils do not make one good, never did, never will.

As for winning the war, the U.S. will. As for winning peace, the U.S. (or the coalition) won't. Not the way they are acting right now. If they wanted to persuade the people that the war is not fought against them, there should be tons of food, medical supply and all that flooding the country (or given to the International Red Cross to supply the hospitals. They amputate and do surgery without any narcotics. That is pain!
And if you see Iraqi people on T.V. giving your troops the "thumbs up"-sign. It has a different meaning in Arab countries: it means "up yours"...

I am definitely not "whining", I am complaining and making good, thoughtful arguments. Biiig difference.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 10:56:26 pm by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2003, 10:54:30 pm »

No, two evils do not create a good.  But it can prevent a greater evil.

I also strongly discourage an individual soldier form taking a "shoot first ask later" approach.  I'm aware that our country doesn't have the purest motives here.  Btw, which war are you talking about "back in the day"?

I was not trying to imply that you personally are whining.  Indeed, you, Lukipela, and Death_999 are some of the most reasonable people I know regarding this war.  Just kinda ranting in general, no protest here at my college (over ANY topic) recently has been intelligent at all...
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2003, 11:04:07 pm »

Really glad we can talk about this in an orderly manner.
I am actually happy to have you guys on this forum here, because I don't know many people who are willing to discuss this with me! (At least not English speaking people!)

Maybe I am critical about the approach to commit a smaller evil to prevent a bigger one, because me personally, I wouldn't even want to be responsible for the smaller one. And where's the thin red line you don't want to cross before the two evils become equal or even worse?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 11:06:29 pm by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2003, 12:27:34 am »

GN, when I said that the oil was one of the main reasons that one would want Poland, I meant, "From a strategic point of view, this is the main asset of Poland that can be taken over." Certainly it's not good defensive terrain.
Also, the oil issue is not unreasonable. Germany took over portions of Czechoslovakia in order to get their industry (lots of weapons manufacturers and general-purpose steel mills) and to get past their easily fortifiable area while it was still not as massively fortified as it could end up and the German army wasn't busy elsewhere.
I presume you will remember the name of that region better than I do.

Lebensraum or not, Germany WAS taking economically profitable regions, and there were potential strategic considerations.

But when it really comes down to it, you're right -- Hitler was all about making Germany the capital of Europe (as compensation for the injustices of Versailles), so Poland was just a portion that would have to have come sooner or later anyway.
He wasn't strategic in the sense that he would listen to his generals or anything... which is a good thing. ::phew::

Interestingly enough, there is another very reasonable war discussion going on at sluggy.net. BOTH boards I frequent are being civil about it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 12:28:49 am by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2003, 12:43:16 am »

GN's right, that really is the biggest threat at the moment. noone seriously doubts that the US is going to win the war. That's pretty much a given. The problem is really winning the peace afterwards.

With all these newsstories about the coalition bombing their own and/or civilians, their image really isn't going any better. And even if the Iraqi in time may come to like their new regime, they probably aren't going to remember the coalition fondly.

and worse are the cuntries around of course. Civil unrest in them is rising pretty damned quick, and the fanatics are gaining ever stronger footholds. Countries like Egypt where there was at least some moderates in power, and Iran, which was going the right way are being set back quite a bit by this. The coalition PR machine is really going to need to make mriacles to fix this.

I mean, Meccha-Cola? Halal Fried Chicken? These things may not be too serious now, but they'll get worse. things tend to. Remember Murphys Law of Thermodynamics (I think) : Things get worse under pressure.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 12:43:49 am by Lukipela » Logged

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I could just puke!
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2003, 01:24:12 am »

D_999, indeed Germany used the infra-structure and natural resources of the countries it conquered (*). As for Tchechoslovakia (or the "Sudetenland"-part of it), it did have a German population and Hitler again used a trick in saying that he needed to save those people. Sadly enough, Great Britain and France played along. Interesting fact: Germany used many Tchech-build "Skoda"-tanks in their early campaigns against Poland and France because German tank development had been lagging behind. Hitler was not only interested in Lebensraum but definitely in the ressources as well, i.e. the vast "wheat chambers" of Europe, the Ukraine.

I'm just glad that the "Gefreiter" (= private, Hitler's rank in WWI) didn't listen to the generals - otherwise we'd probably not be discussing on this forum, or maybe not this topic, or we'd be doing it in German...

LP, you're right. It takes more than just a couple of nice pictures and a good slogan. On the other hand, Mekka-Cola is not an American product. Haven't tasted it till now, but I guess it's yet just another cola.
How would this fast-food meal sound like?
You go to Halal Fried Chicken and have Freedom Fries, Mekka-Cola and a Nazareth-Double with cheese.

(I guess it will all end with the topic-headline of this thread Lips Sealed)

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(*) Thought: That's why I'm really nervous/afraid/curious about what the U.S. have planned for Iraq. Let them sell their oil to the world, pay American companies to rebuild their country, Iraq is doing better, the U.S. economy booms... uh oh! I guess the U.N. should really have a saying in that, to legalize the new Iraqi government and integrate it into the world.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 01:28:55 am by German_Nightmare » Logged

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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2003, 01:26:52 am »

Mekka-Cola and HFC aren't american products, that's my point,. they are an attempt to break "the corrupt captialist powers of the west", by bying homemade products. In itself, nothing wrong with local products, but these things are a strong anti american and pro jihad statement if I haven't gotten it all wrong. It'll spread, and grow. (agaibn, maybe). And then what?
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2003, 01:49:17 am »

Well, from the "all capitalist" point of view, I don't think the new products or food chain will be a threat to the U.S. companies.

Wasn't Mekka-Cola just meant as an alternative to CokeR or PepsiR for the Muslim world? The "Jihad" or "justified holy war" is only one part of Islam.
Another fact: All the necessary circumstances for an official Jihad are fulfilled at the moment: Unjustified, unprovoked attack by "unbelievers" (i.e. Christians) on innocent Muslim people (the civilians in Iraq). There's more trouble ahead than anyone could ever anticipate. Let's hope for the best!
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Re: I could just puke!
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2003, 01:53:11 am »

yes, but I seem to recall reading somewhere (and correct me if I'm wrong again!), that part of the profits on Mekka-Cola goes to organisations that are suspiciously closely linked to suicide bombers and terrorist organisations... So in a way, protesting against the US also means endorsing terrorism...
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