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Topic: The meaning of life (Read 4707 times)
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Zanthius
Enlightened
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Maybe this, maybe that. You think that we are a bunch of dumbasses that don't do any forensic research and hear witnesses after someone dies in such a way?
I don't know if there were any witnesses. With lots of suicides there aren't any witnesses. And even if there were witnesses, people cannot necessarily be trusted, especially if they were intoxicated themselves. I don't think anybody really knows what goes on inside the head of another person.
And even if he "thought he could fly", and that's why he jumped out of the window, I would put 95% of the blame on the individual. In that case, he probably had psychotic / schizophrenic tendencies in his normal state of being.
The fact is, quite a lot of people experience bad trips during their trips. Which is no problem to control once you have the right mindset and setting and someone watching you. But it is still something to consider. That's why I asked for your personal experience. Could you share it with us? Sure. I have had lots of good and bad trips when I was younger. But I don't necessarily think I have ever lost so much touch with reality that I believed I could jump out of a window. Bad trips are usually much more about seeing "bad things" that you kinda are used to ignore in your normal state of being. For example, my friends are assholes to me, but I ignore that in my normal state of being to protect my psychological well-being. While high on magic mushrooms, I might realize what assholes they are, and that might give me a very bad feeling. You kinda remove psychological filters with 5-HT2A receptor agonists (especially mushrooms).
I actually remember once when I ate magic mushrooms while I was together with my parents (they didn't know). I remember that I felt extremely sad, because for the first time I realized what an unhappy marriage they had. I had always ignored that before.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:40:16 pm by Zanthius »
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Scalare
*Many bubbles*
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Posts: 245
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Maybe this, maybe that. You think that we are a bunch of dumbasses that don't do any forensic research and hear witnesses after someone dies in such a way?
I don't know if there were any witnesses. With lots of suicides there aren't any witnesses. And even if there were witnesses, people cannot necessarily be trusted, especially if they were intoxicated themselves. I don't think anybody really knows what goes on inside the head of another person. And even if he "thought he could fly", and that's why he jumped out of the window, I would put 95% of the blame on the individual. In that case, he probably had psychotic / schizophrenic tendencies in his normal state of being. I agree.. But how dumb can you be if you think that I am talking out of my ass here and haven't read the related news articles and research back then. I don't agree with the ban at all. But when you disregard what happened you are putting people in danger.
The fact is, quite a lot of people experience bad trips during their trips. Which is no problem to control once you have the right mindset and setting and someone watching you. But it is still something to consider. That's why I asked for your personal experience. Could you share it with us? Sure. I have had lots of good and bad trips when I was younger. But I don't necessarily think I have ever lost so much touch with reality, that I believed I could jump out of a window. Bad trips are usually much more about seeing "bad things" that you kinda are used to ignore in your normal state of being. For example, my friends are assholes to me, but I ignore that in my normal state of being to protect my psychological well-being. While high on magic mushrooms, I might realize what assholes they are, and that might give me a very bad feeling.
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I have never had any bad trip with it as well. But I understand that people who are more control freaks than I have had really bad experiences with it, some of my friends as well. About bad trips with psylocybin:
A majority of the participants — 62 percent — said their bad trip was among the top 10 most psychologically difficult situations of their lives. Eleven percent said it was their number one most difficult experience.
The study also demonstrated that bad trips can have severe consequences. Eleven percent of the participants said they put themselves or others at risk of physical harm, while 2.6 percent reported behaving in a physically aggressive or violent manner. This was associated with longer, more difficult experiences in which the participant had little physical comfort or social support.
Source: http://www.psypost.org/2016/08/study-bad-trips-from-magic-mushrooms-often-result-in-an-improved-sense-of-personal-well-being-44684
So yeah, if you're a tourist you really should watch out doing drugs in a country that is more liberal. Get yourself educated. Finally the whole reason I agitate against your suggestion is that I don't think the risk is worth the reward. If you're looking for a mystical experience with way less risk for bad trips you should try something else like LSD or MXE, or even MDMA.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:48:04 pm by Scalare »
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Scalare
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I'm just saying that research has shown that psylocybin is more likely to cause bad trips and more likely to have people put themselves in a harmful situation than other drugs.
I know they are more likely to give people bad trips than most other drugs, but I don't necessarily think that is bad for people in the long run. Compared to MDMA for example, I also think they give people MUCH MORE introspective insight. As already said a small percentage of those bad trips result in the person putting himself in harmful situations, as research has shown.
But by all means, make another graph about it so your own personal opinion becomes more scientific?
From the article you linked to:
New research suggests a bad trip isn’t always bad. About 84 percent of drug users who have experienced a “bad trip” from hallucinogenic mushrooms say they benefited from the psychologically difficult situation. [/quote]
As said, that reward is not worth the risk when a small percentage has put himself in harmful situations due to it.
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Zanthius
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As said, that reward is not worth the risk when a small percentage has put himself in harmful situations due to it.
You need to multiply the probability of putting others/self at risk during a bad trip, with the probability of having a bad trip in the first place. Say for example if the probability of having a bad trip is 20%, and of the people having a bad trip around 2% put themselves/others at risk, then it is 0.2 * 0.02 = 0.004, or 0.4% probability.
So you compare this risk to the risk of putting self/others at risk in other aspects of life, for example with alcohol intoxication, driving a car, using a boat, riding a horse, etc. You will find that we are doing tons of other things which are much more likely of putting self/others at risk.
We cannot necessarily ban all things which have some probability of putting self/others at risk. That would at least create an extremely boring society, where the population would be rather overprotected and dumb.
Also, the probability of having a bad trip in the first place, can be reduced a lot by: 1) ensuring that you are not taking too much, 2) being in a place where you feel comfortable, 3) having a stable psychology.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:59:31 pm by Zanthius »
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Scalare
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Also, the probability of having a bad trip in the first place, can be reduced a lot by: 1) ensuring that you are not taking too much, 2) being in a place where you feel comfortable, 3) having a stable psychology.
1) By taking less you just get some close eyed visuals, nothing more. The mystic experience you talk about is then never there. 2) Agreed 3) People with stable psychology don't really experience much positive effects as much as people who need a 'rewiring of the brain' to feel happy again.
About MXE. It does the rewiring way better. Whereas psylocybin and mdma make you relativate more easily (and be more understanding about people/problems from the past) MXE makes all those problems less important in your head, with permanent effects. And it also greatly improves your memory and especially if you have a creative job it could help you become more open minded to things you would normally not think of. Qua negative effects it gives quite heavy auditory hallucinations, if that is not your thing. But if you are a musician it really could help in writing better music, since you're better able to distinguish different instruments in existing songs and judge how they relate. Another negative is that it really amplifies the effects of alcohol to an unhealthy situation. So never combine it with alcohol. 2CB (c, d, e, f, getting stronger and with longer trips as they go) has those effects as well along with heavy visuals. You know the effect when you smell something you are reminded of the place where you smelled it? Or when you hear music you are reminded of the time when it was your favorite s ong? 2CB really heightens those effects, though the visuals are hard to handle for some people. Both chemicals are very hard to dose by the way so take care where you get it and get a good scale and test a small amount before you take more.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 08:29:30 pm by Scalare »
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