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Topic: Trump (Read 7770 times)
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 07:25:04 pm » |
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Zanthius, you're not really helping your case there.
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Zanthius
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Re: Trump
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 07:31:21 pm » |
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Again, a bigoted worldview. It's quite possible that there's a better solution.
It is a possibility that there is a better solution, but since you are not presenting such a solution, but rather focusing on calling my worldview bigoted, you seem to be arguing much in the same way as what you accused Hillary Clinton of. She accused Trump supporters of being a basket of deplorables, while you are accusing me of having a bigoted worldview. Do you think Trump supporters learned anything from being called a basket of deplorables? Do you think I learned anything from you telling me that I have a bigoted worldview?
If you had told me exactly why a more progressive tax system isn't necessary to decrease the wealth inequality, or if you had presented me with a better solution, then maybe I would have learned something....
Or, alternatively, it's quite possible that some people don't see a problem with a small percentage of the population controlling 80% of the wealth.
If I am working 10 hours a day, and can't make enough money to pay my rent, then I think it should be quite obvious to me that my problem is that I don't earn enough money per hour, or that I am paying too much rent. The problem is probably not that there are too many Mexicans.
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 07:44:00 pm by Zanthius »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 07:57:45 pm » |
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I think it was the part where you said,
"I must admit that I now have much more respect for the black people in the United States, than for the white people. Because the black people seemed to be able to see what kind of a person Donald Trump is."
Over-generalization is bad, mmmkay?
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Zanthius
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Re: Trump
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 08:25:48 pm » |
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I'm not arguing with you on this point. I support progressive taxation. I'm just explaining what sort of arguments people who disagree with you would use. My argument isn't that you're wrong; it's that people who disagree with you don't do so because they're stupid or ignorant, but rather because they have different values or perspectives than you do. Essentially, I am advocating the principle of charity.
Okay, but I am not saying that people that disagree with me on every issue is stupid/ignorant, just on some issues. I don't necessarily think that rich people that are against more progressive taxes are stupid and/or ignorant. I would rather call them a bit egoistical, since they seem to care more about increasing their own wealth, than about the prosperity of all people and society in general.
When I say you are presenting a bigoted worldview, I mean that it is bigoted to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, rather than to consider their views on equal terms with your own.
Do you think that every opinion is equally valid? But then we can't necessarily say that racism is bad either, just that the "racists" have a different opinion that isn't necessarily better or worse than our own.
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:05:18 pm by Zanthius »
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Scalare
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Re: Trump
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2017, 09:27:48 pm » |
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1- James McDougal - Convicted Whitewater partner of the Clintons who died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.
2 - Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown (Washington, D. C.). The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment by Clinton in the White House.
3 - Vince Foster - Former White House Councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law Firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide. (He was about to testify against Hillary related to the records she refused to turn over to congress.) Was reported to have been having an affair with Hillary.
4 - Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the Air Traffic controller committed suicide.
5 - C. Victor Raiser, II - Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6 - Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock on September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor".
7 - Ed Willey - Clinton fundraiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day His wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8 - Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock ... Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.
9 - James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited Prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas
10 - James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to the Clintons' Whitewater deals.
11 - Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones Lawsuit, and Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12 - Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancée of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancée, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancée.
13 - Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client, Dan Lassater, was a convicted drug distributor.
14 - Florence Martin - Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal, Mena, Arkansas Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot Wounds.
15 - Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died Of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a Suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16 - Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9,1992. She died in a one car accident.
17 - Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter who was Investigating the Mean Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18 - Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mean Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993, in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death. (May have died of poison)
19 - Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15,1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20 - Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21 - Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22 - Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton 's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and Brother.
23 - Barry Seal - Drug running TWA pilot out of Mean Arkansas, death was no accident.
24 - Johnny Lawhorn, Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25 - Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26 - Hershel Friday - Attorney and Clinton fundraiser died March 1, 1994, when his plane exploded.
27 - Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the two boys may have stumbled upon the Mean Arkansas airport drug operation. The initial report of death said their deaths were due to falling asleep on railroad tracks and being run over. Later autopsy reports stated that the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
28 - Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29 - Keith McMaskle - Died, stabbed 113 times, Nov 1988
30 - Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31 - Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989. (Coroner ruled death due to suicide)
32 - James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to natural causes"?
33 - Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
34 - Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON PERSONAL BODYGUARDS ALL DIED OF MYSTERIOUS CAUSES OR SUICIDE
36 - Major William S. Barkley, Jr.
37 - Captain Scott J . Reynolds
38 - Sgt. Brian Hanley
39 - Sgt. Tim Sabel
40 - Major General William Robertson
41 - Col. William Densberger
42 - Col. Robert Kelly
43 - Spec. Gary Rhodes
44 - Steve Willis
45 - Robert Williams
46 - Conway LeBleu
47 - Todd McKeehan
Whoops, it appears my list only goes to 47 people. Then it appears everything is alright 
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« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 09:30:13 pm by Scalare »
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Scalare
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Re: Trump
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2017, 09:48:23 pm » |
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All the signs point to it, and you should know that the american justice system is bought.
I guess afterwards you can always say 'wir haben es nicht gewusst', even in this century.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 12:33:26 am » |
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I asked for two for a reason. Kenneth Starr of all people, no friend of the Clintons, concluded that they didn't have anything to do with Vince Foster's death. If your list is populated with nothing better than that…
let me glance down the list and pick some out randomly.
> 9 - James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited Prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas
This doesn't point to them at all. There would be hundreds of people who would want to do such a person in, and that's assuming it really was murder.
> 13 - Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client, Dan Lassater, was a convicted drug distributor.
This doesn't sound like the kind of person they would want to kill, even if they were totally 100% evil - he was useful and on their team.
Screw it. Either pick two to present in depth or…
Well. The argument wasn't so much over whether they're actually mass-murderers, but whether they're seen that way. So yes, it appears that someone has managed to paint them that way, to people who have low evidentiary standards.
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Zanthius
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Re: Trump
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2017, 09:12:03 am » |
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By default, yes. Both "invalid" and "unsound" have very specific meanings, and they need to be proven before they can be soundly asserted.
Ok. Let me ask you. Do you think 0.7% of the world population would be able to control 45.6% of the world's wealth, if the poor people were more informed (better educated)?
If I was alone in a room with 100 people, and I had 45.6% of the wealth in the room, don't you think the 99 other people in the room (many of them starving) would start to complain, and force me to give them some of my wealth? And how would I (being only 1 individual) be able to prevent them? Especially if the room was a democracy, where they could vote on if I should give away some of my wealth or not, and I would need to accept the vote.
By the way, we are Bayesians here, so saying that something needs to be "proven" is a bit misleading. We rather talk about degrees of probability in Bayesian statistics.
Here a page I have made to explain Bayes' theorem (http://www.archania.org/bayes_theorem_explained.html)
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 11:53:32 am by Zanthius »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2017, 02:17:06 pm » |
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Well, SOME of us are Bayesian.
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Julie.chan
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Re: Trump
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2017, 03:12:32 pm » |
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Ok. Let me ask you. Do you think 0.7% of the world population would be able to control 45.6% of the world's wealth, if the poor people were more informed (better educated)?
Yes. I don't see why that would make it impossible.
If I was alone in a room with 100 people, and I had 45.6% of the wealth in the room, don't you think the 99 other people in the room (many of them starving) would start to complain, and force me to give them some of my wealth? And how would I (being only 1 individual) be able to prevent them? Especially if the room was a democracy, where they could vote on if I should give away some of my wealth or not, and I would need to accept the vote.
What context are you talking about here?
First of all, I don't think most normal people concern themselves with how much money everyone in a room has. If you have $20 and someone has $200, you don't go demanding that the person with $200 give handouts to everyone so that the amount of money everyone has is equal.
Secondly, and more importantly, people treat situations involving small groups they are a part of very differently from situations involving the entire population of the United States. If a situation where someone having $200 matters does come up, it's not going to play out the same way as some rich person you don't even know the name of having millions of dollars while you only have a few thousand and can't pay the bills.
By the way, we are Bayesians here, so saying that something needs to be "proven" is a bit misleading. We rather talk about degrees of probability in Bayesian statistics.
That's pedantic. "Proven" in this sense means that sufficient evidence is provided to support the claim.
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Zanthius
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Re: Trump
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2017, 04:00:47 pm » |
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First of all, I don't think most normal people concern themselves with how much money everyone in a room has. If you have $20 and someone has $200, you don't go demanding that the person with $200 give handouts to everyone so that the amount of money everyone has is equal.
Sure, but I am not talking about a difference between $20 and $200, but rather the difference between $20 and $20 000 000. A little inequality isn't necessarily a bad thing. It might even make lazy people work a bit harder. But when 0.7% of the world population controls almost half of the world's wealth, it isn't necessarily beneficial anymore.
Secondly, and more importantly, people treat situations involving small groups they are a part of very differently from situations involving the entire population of the United States. If a situation where someone having $200 matters does come up, it's not going to play out the same way as some rich person you don't even know the name of having millions of dollars while you only have a few thousand and can't pay the bills.
Maybe because it becomes more abstract when there are more people, and we don’t know most them. And it doesn’t help if the government is feeding us propaganda telling us that wealth “trickles down” when you have less taxes for the rich, even though there is little empirical evidence for this (http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/pn_15_4.pdf , https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/21/offshore-wealth-global-economy-tax-havens , http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/business/12scene.html).
But there are two ways which increasing the progressiveness of the tax system can make it economically easier for poor people:
- One reason, is that increasing the progressiveness of the tax can just as well mean less taxes for the poor, as more taxes for the rich. So poor people might actually pay less taxes in a more progressive tax system.
- Another advantage, is that since we are getting much more taxes from the rich, we might be able to offer free healthcare, free education, and free public transportation for everyone. Rich people don’t necessarily care so much about such public goods, but for poor people such public goods can make a huge difference in their lives.
So, my question is. If a more progressive tax system can make it economically easier for poor people, why didn't all the poor people vote for Bernie Sanders? Maybe because they are ignorant due to a dysfunctional educational system?
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 04:13:30 pm by Zanthius »
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