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Topic: Nutrition (Read 15962 times)
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Zanthius
Enlightened
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Posts: 941
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Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
Tracking what each person is buying, could certainly in theory be used to improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.
Also, tracking all people's purchases, is only one form of surveillance. This type of surveillance might not be as common in your country as here, but other forms of surveillance might be much more common in your country than here (for example cellphone surveillance and Internet surveillance). So your country might still fit the definition of a "surveillance state" more than my country. I don't know about you, but I would certainly care less about somebody monitoring what groceries I am buying, than I would care about someone reading my private emails. Not all forms of surveillance are necessarily equally unacceptable.
According to this map for example, your country has much more surveillance than mine:
https://www.wired.com/2007/12/worlds-top-surv/
Looks like USA, UK, China, and Russia are worst in the world. Not my country, Germany, France, or the Netherlands. Canada and Australia also seems to have less surveillance than your country.
Here is another map I found. Your country is also depicted as doing more surveillance here:
https://namhenderson.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/map-of-level-of-surveillance-across-globe/
So it might at least be considered mildly hypocritical of you to criticize a west European country like the Netherlands for being a "surveillance state".
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« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:32:17 pm by Zanthius »
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Julie.chan
*Many bubbles*
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Posts: 130
Sharing is good.
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Tracking what each person is buying, could certainly in theory be used to improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.
That still doesn't answer my question.
Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
According to this map for example, your country has much more surveillance than mine:
I disagree. The level of privacy a country has is far more complicated that what can be shown on a pretty map, and neither of those two maps come with detailed explanations for how whoever drew them up came to the conclusion they did. The second one seems to focus a lot on "protections", which is a nonsense measure, because it's the capability of the state and other powerful parties to perform surveillance that is dangerous. This is true regardless of what the law says, as the Snowden revelations made perfectly clear; governments can just ignore their own laws or sneak around them. Speaking of Snowden, these maps also predate his revelations by a few years, so they are woefully out of date.
But that's rather insubstantial to the point. Even if it is true that the U.S. is already worse than any other Western nation (a premise I do not accept), that wouldn't excuse even further surveillance. Quite the contrary, it would mean that the surveillance that already exists must be eliminated.
So let's get back to the actual point.
Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
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Zanthius
Enlightened
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Posts: 941
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But that's rather insubstantial to the point. Even if it is true that the U.S. is already worse than any other Western nation (a premise I do not accept), that wouldn't excuse even further surveillance. Quite the contrary, it would mean that the surveillance that already exists must be eliminated.
The type of surveillance your country is engaged in, which Edward Snowden showed us? Yeah, I think we should get rid of such surveillance.
The type of surveillance that my country is engaged in (grocery shops monitoring what people are buying)? No, I don't necessarily think we should get rid of it, and go back to a stone age cash based society. I think we should have very strict rules for what the grocery shops are allowed to do with that information. If it is just sent to my private account, so that I can have an overview of what groceries I am buying, I think it is acceptable.
Btw. If you don't want any surveillance, maybe you also don't want your doctor/hospital to keep a journal of your health? I think most people rather would let someone see their shopping history, than their health journal.
Anyhow, making the world into a zero-surveillance society, would be impossible at this stage, with Internet and all the cameras. If you really want to live in a zero-surveillance society, you should move to somewhere in Africa and live off the grid. Or maybe join one of your Amish settlements.
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« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:35:25 pm by Zanthius »
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Julie.chan
*Many bubbles*
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I am not going to have this conversation diverted until we have established, clearly, what it is that you are proposing we sacrifice our privacy for. So I ask again:
Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
This is the seventh time I have asked this very simple yes/no question, and I have yet to get a straight answer from you.
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Zanthius
Enlightened
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Do you understand the question well enough to answer it now?
As I have already told you, yes it should work according to theory. You can make computer simulations and they will show you that it works, unless you add a lot of noise (which would be anomalies in reality). However, I cannot get empirical evidence before a society has experimented with it, as you ought to know. We don't know exactly how much noise (anomalies) there will be, but there has to be a lot of noise (anomalies) for it to not work at all.
In a very disorganized society (like Venezuela), I doubt it would work very well. In more organized societies; like Japan, Singapore and South Korea, there would probably be much less noise (anomalies), and it would work better.
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 02:24:28 pm by Zanthius »
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