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Author Topic: Nutrition  (Read 12779 times)
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2017, 03:30:39 pm »

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And consumption of unhealthy food also costs a lot

We need to ban video games to stop people from being unproductive. Lack of productivity costs a lot.

You're still not answering my very simple yes/no questions:

Do you have any evidence that the way human behavior works is reflected in what you did to that image where you blotted out half the pixels?

Do you have any evidence for the 10% anomalies estimate?

And again, do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2017, 03:37:01 pm »

We need to ban video games to stop people from being unproductive. Lack of productivity costs a lot.

This is a  false equivalence.

You're still not answering my very simple yes/no questions:

Reality is not always so simple that it fits into binary thinking patterns.

Quote
Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:03:16 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2017, 03:40:31 pm »

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Reality is not always so simple that it fits into binary thinking patterns.

You either have evidence or you don't. There is no other possibility. You can't both have evidence and not have evidence.
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2017, 03:43:58 pm »

You either have evidence or you don't. There is no other possibility. You can't both have evidence and not have evidence.

Nonsense. There are always degrees of certainty from evidences. According to Bayesian statistics, an evidence can never give you 100% certainty of anything.

http://www.archania.org/bayes_theorem_explained.html
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:01:59 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2017, 04:18:40 pm »

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Nonsense. There are always degrees of certainty from evidences.

That isn't what I asked. I'll repeat it again.

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

The answer is either "yes" or "no".
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2017, 04:22:19 pm »

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

Let me ask you then, how would you get such evidence, without first implementing such a system?

According to theory? Yeah, I have tons of evidence that such a system should improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:25:54 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2017, 04:34:53 pm »

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I have tons of evidence that such a system should improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.

That isn't an answer to my question.

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

If you are just having a hard time with English, "the extent to which" is synonymous in this context with "how much", "the degree to which", "how effectively", etc.
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2017, 04:43:58 pm »

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

Tracking what each person is buying, could certainly in theory be used to improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.

Also, tracking all people's purchases, is only one form of surveillance. This type of surveillance might not be as common in your country as here, but other forms of surveillance might be much more common in your country than here (for example cellphone surveillance and Internet surveillance). So your country might still fit the definition of a "surveillance state" more than my country. I don't know about you, but I would certainly care less about somebody monitoring what groceries I am buying, than I would care about someone reading my private emails. Not all forms of surveillance are necessarily equally unacceptable.

According to this map for example, your country has much more surveillance than mine:



https://www.wired.com/2007/12/worlds-top-surv/

Looks like USA, UK, China, and Russia are worst in the world. Not my country, Germany, France, or the Netherlands. Canada and Australia also seems to have less surveillance than your country.

Here is another map I found. Your country is also depicted as doing more surveillance here:



https://namhenderson.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/map-of-level-of-surveillance-across-globe/

So it might at least be considered mildly hypocritical of you to criticize a west European country like the Netherlands for being a "surveillance state".
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:32:17 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2017, 05:58:44 pm »

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Tracking what each person is buying, could certainly in theory be used to improve our scientific understanding of nutrition.

That still doesn't answer my question.

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

Quote
According to this map for example, your country has much more surveillance than mine:

I disagree. The level of privacy a country has is far more complicated that what can be shown on a pretty map, and neither of those two maps come with detailed explanations for how whoever drew them up came to the conclusion they did. The second one seems to focus a lot on "protections", which is a nonsense measure, because it's the capability of the state and other powerful parties to perform surveillance that is dangerous. This is true regardless of what the law says, as the Snowden revelations made perfectly clear; governments can just ignore their own laws or sneak around them. Speaking of Snowden, these maps also predate his revelations by a few years, so they are woefully out of date.

But that's rather insubstantial to the point. Even if it is true that the U.S. is already worse than any other Western nation (a premise I do not accept), that wouldn't excuse even further surveillance. Quite the contrary, it would mean that the surveillance that already exists must be eliminated.

So let's get back to the actual point.

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2017, 06:06:45 pm »

But that's rather insubstantial to the point. Even if it is true that the U.S. is already worse than any other Western nation (a premise I do not accept), that wouldn't excuse even further surveillance. Quite the contrary, it would mean that the surveillance that already exists must be eliminated.

The type of surveillance your country is engaged in, which Edward Snowden showed us? Yeah, I think we should get rid of such surveillance.

The type of surveillance that my country is engaged in (grocery shops monitoring what people are buying)? No, I don't necessarily think we should get rid of it, and go back to a stone age cash based society. I think we should have very strict rules for what the grocery shops are allowed to do with that information. If it is just sent to my private account, so that I can have an overview of what groceries I am buying, I think it is acceptable.

Btw. If you don't want any surveillance, maybe you also don't want your doctor/hospital to keep a journal of your health? I think most people rather would let someone see their shopping history, than their health journal.

Anyhow, making the world into a zero-surveillance society, would be impossible at this stage, with Internet and all the cameras. If you really want to live in a zero-surveillance society, you should move to somewhere in Africa and live off the grid. Or maybe join one of your Amish settlements.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:35:25 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2017, 06:42:44 pm »

I am not going to have this conversation diverted until we have established, clearly, what it is that you are proposing we sacrifice our privacy for. So I ask again:

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

This is the seventh time I have asked this very simple yes/no question, and I have yet to get a straight answer from you.
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2017, 06:45:42 pm »

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?

You said yourself:

I disagree. The level of privacy a country has is far more complicated that what can be shown on a pretty map

Consider that as an answer to your own question. It is much more complicated than what you are implying with your question.

In particular. The "extent to which" part, makes it sound like there is only one type of surveillance, and that we can measure the amount of surveillance 1-dimensionally. If we could do that, we could also make a pretty map with shades of gray, where your country wouldn't exactly have the lightest shade of gray. So, yeah, I think it could be implemented with much less surveillance than you have now, or with a much more benevolent form of surveillance than you have today.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:24:53 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2017, 01:09:34 pm »

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The "extent to which" part, makes it sound like there is only one type of surveillance

Aha, I see the problem here. You did misunderstand the question, albeit not in the way that I thought you might.

For reference, this was the question:

"Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?"

Your mistake is in assuming that "the extent to which" is modifying the "implementing..." part, which is an impossible interpretation. Note the use of "to which", not "of". "The extent to which" is modifying the "would improve..." part. The "to which" pattern I used here can never be used to modify the cause in a sentence like this one, only the result.

Do you understand the question well enough to answer it now?
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Zanthius
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2017, 01:34:44 pm »

Do you understand the question well enough to answer it now?

As I have already told you, yes it should work according to theory. You can make computer simulations and they will show you that it works, unless you add a lot of noise (which would be anomalies in reality). However, I cannot get empirical evidence before a society has experimented with it, as you ought to know. We don't know exactly how much noise (anomalies) there will be, but there has to be a lot of noise (anomalies) for it to not work at all.

In a very disorganized society (like Venezuela), I doubt it would work very well. In more organized societies; like Japan, Singapore and South Korea, there would probably be much less noise (anomalies), and it would work better.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 02:24:28 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: Nutrition
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2017, 04:19:49 pm »

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As I have already told you, yes it should work according to theory.

Then you are still not understanding the question, because no, that is not an answer to it. Please read this very carefully. Every single word is in there for a reason:

Do you have any evidence of the extent to which implementing the surveillance state you want to implement (tracking all people's purchases) would improve our scientific understanding of nutrition?
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