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News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

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Author Topic: My take on Stardock  (Read 109271 times)
Elestan
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #630 on: April 23, 2018, 08:59:06 am »

Worst case scenario, the original copyrights are compromised and the project is DEAD.

That's going a bit overboard, IMHO.  It would be very hard for Stardock to make a copyright claim against the UQM project unless they managed to completely invalidate the 1988 agreement that gave P&F any copyrights that Accolade might have had in it.

EDIT: They could also do it if they managed to prove that the agreement was still fully active.  But I think that's just as unlikely, given all the termination conditions in it.

What they could perhaps do is reveal that P&F didn't hold proper authority to license or sublicense some of the assets they released so long ago.  But if that happens, it's not really Stardock's fault - that would be a genuine flaw in the origins of the project.  And in order for it to have more than a theoretical impact, one of the original contributors would have to care about it enough to try to have that copyright enforced.  For example, Erol Otus or Greg Johnson would have to step forward and object to the UQM project.  This seems unlikely.

If you want to take issue with Stardock, I think it would be more proper to keep it directed toward their new trademark claims, as those are Stardock's own decisions, and have the greatest potential to directly impact the project.

We should know more about any copyright issues in UQM as the discovery process goes forward.  P&F will probably have to show the legal status of all of the contributions made by other people, so we'll see if there are any contributions that don't have all the fine print in order.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:29:17 am by Elestan » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #631 on: April 23, 2018, 09:13:02 am »

Reply to Lakstoties:

Wow, you really are a doomsayer.

I just don't think any of that can happen.

Even if your worst case scenario happened the Streisand effect would be too much to overcome given how long the UQM project has been going.

Regardless, Brad's plan was to release the SC3 code to this very community once Origins was out of the way.
I bugged him... Still bugging him really, to show me the source and the ensuing exchange we had triggered the idea to release it.
That doesn't sound like a decision that one has if they wanted to stifle an open source community.

I believe I was allowed to reveal SC3 source thing.
If not, we'll probably see more activity from me here on the forum, so... Your loss, hehe.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #632 on: April 23, 2018, 04:41:48 pm »

Reply to Lakstoties:

Wow, you really are a doomsayer.

I just don't think any of that can happen.
I am quite the doomsayer.  I am often, thankfully, wrong, but I theorize the worst case scenario so people consider it and don't disregard it before it is too late.  Because, otherwise, it blindsides people and becomes all too real before anything can be done.  As ridiculous as the "settlement" proposal from Stardock was, it does showcase a nasty intent that was a possible outcome for this ongoing situation.  When it comes to law procedures, I have often seen that "If you are willing to foot the bill, there's a way."

Avoiding the copyright angle which I'll admit is far flung (but I can't completely eliminate from possibility), if Stardock gets half the trademark filings through, it will pretty much end the freedom of existence the project has.  Stardock will have points of origin to launch lawsuit after lawsuit, and effectively kill the project out of litigation fatigue alone.  United States legal system is pretty garbage if you have no money nor the ability to spend time to defend yourself (usually by depriving yourself of money from missing work).  So, even with a single trademark, Stardock could effectively shutdown the project.  You may argue that promises have been made to never use such against UQM...  But I prefer situation where the promise does not need to be made.  I prefer to ride in the car that doesn't have the guy with a stick of dynamite and lighter promising he won't light it.

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Even if your worst case scenario happened the Streisand effect would be too much to overcome given how long the UQM project has been going.
In the greater scale of Stardock's business.  UQM shutting down probably wouldn't even affect a trickle of income.  Stardock could completely write off the UQM fanbase and still continue to make a hefty profit...  They just update their narrative on all their mediums and come up with a story about re-releasing a new and improved version...  that never comes to light.  Most the Stardock dedicated haven't even heard of the UQM project and probably wouldn't care, even if you sat them down and told them all about it.  You are a rarity Serosis.  Most, from what I've gathered, support Stardock's position regardless of valid arguments against it.  So there may be a little irritation, but many won't care after the release of Star Control: Origins.  Most folks just want another Stardock game, they don't care what happens in the background from their perspective.

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Regardless, Brad's plan was to release the SC3 code to this very community once Origins was out of the way.
I bugged him... Still bugging him really, to show me the source and the ensuing exchange we had triggered the idea to release it.
That doesn't sound like a decision that one has if they wanted to stifle an open source community.

Here's the thing: Stardock could release the SC3 source code RIGHT NOW under an Open Source License.  They don't need trademarks at all (that's just what they keep on saying but it's not true at all), they have the copyrights to the material to release it under an Open Source license.  And until the SC3 source code is released, I can't believe anything proposed on that matter.

Stardock is a corporation at the end of the day, run by a very business driven person.  A corporation has one goal: to make money.  All can and will be sacrificed to meet that goal, eventually.  So, I, by principle, don't trust corporation promises nor the statements from those who have direct stake in the corporation.  Because when they are under the gun, where are they going to side?
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #633 on: April 23, 2018, 06:07:32 pm »

Regardless, Brad's plan was to release the SC3 code to this very community once Origins was out of the way.
I bugged him... Still bugging him really, to show me the source and the ensuing exchange we had triggered the idea to release it.
That doesn't sound like a decision that one has if they wanted to stifle an open source community.

I believe I was allowed to reveal SC3 source thing.
If not, we'll probably see more activity from me here on the forum, so... Your loss, hehe.

That's interesting because that was part of Paul & Fred's settlement proposal to Stardock. To release all three games open source.

It does beg the question as to why Stardock doesn't just do that now. If I were to think like a business, it's because those "Star Control bundles" allowed them to make an announcement with another burst of press hits. They use nostalgia in the old games to raise awareness of their new project, and get a few pre-orders in the process. And considering they're now in the "long tail" of sales and press for that bundle/announcement, you can see they had no problem removing all that stuff from Steam.

Keep in mind that through this entire process -- the lawsuit, the pre-lawsuit negotiations, and sooner -- Stardock has guarded their right to distribute the games. One of the main reasons the negotiations broke down in the first place was because Stardock privately insisted "We are the publisher of Star Control 1, 2, and 3". Otherwise, the proposal seemed to be pretty fair: both new games come out, Stardock is the only one who can call their game Star Control, P&F are the only ones who get to use the original aliens / characters, and coordinate their marketing timelines to avoid interfering with each other. Maybe some minor controversy that Stardock wanted P&F to say positive things about Origins, but for sure they could at least agree to stop disparaging each other.

If that's true, the parties could agree to a settlement tomorrow. It really just depends whether Stardock's recent non-settlement position is based on tactics or pride.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:13:21 pm by rosepatel » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #634 on: April 23, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »

I also agree that painting Stardock as Druuge equivalents serves no rational purpose. It is nothing but an appeal to emotion, and it is also one of the many mistakes Fred and Paul made during this conflict.

What mistakes, you might ask? Well, I've recently been reviewing the early posts made in this thread, and my thought about Fred and Paul's actions was "What the hell were they thinking?". It really does look like, as Serosis put it, "suicide by lawyer". I am still fully sympathetic with their stated goals, but there are so many things they did that only made their position much, much worse. If they hadn't used the Star Control trademark and the SC2 box art in their initial blog post or issued the takedown notices to Steam and GOG (although the latter was probably going to happen anyway if we're to believe Fred and Paul's own post), this whole legal conflict might not have started at all, though they still might have needed to provide evidence for what exactly they own in terms of copyright (they still do). If Fred's tone in his letters to Brad hadn't been so hostile, Brad might have been more receptive to canceling or amending the 1988 agreement, regardless of whether it has expired by now or not (since Brad himself said in his letter that the agreement was "unfair").

That said, one must also pay attention to why Fred and Paul's tone became so hostile. It is because F&P perceived Stardock's requests to work with them in future Star Control sequels as an attempt to get a hold of their IP. And, since Stardock has decided to register the trademarks to "The Ur-Quan Masters", as well as the classic SC2/UQM aliens, the first conclusion that comes to one's mind is that Fred and Paul were right about that. And that only served to antagonize F&P, as well as the UQM fans, including myself.

However, the fact that a settlement conference is taking place soon makes me feel hopeful. I see two scenarios that would avoid consumer confusion and satisfy me as a UQM fan:

1. Stardock's trademarks for "The Ur-Quan Masters" and the SC2 aliens are canceled, and so is the 1988 agreement. Stardock would retain the Star Control trademark and the copyright to SC3. From my layman's point of view, this should not cause any problem with copyright even though SC3 uses the aliens and dialogue from SC2, since the manual already states that SC3 uses licensed characters from Fred and Paul. However, Origins would have to rename the Arilou, Dnyarri, Drall, and any of the other UQM aliens it would use, as they would be owned by F&P, and they would no longer be bound to Stardock by any licensing agreements. However, if Brad wants revenge against Fred and Paul more than letting the Ur-Quan universe continue, he won't agree to this voluntarily.

2. Stardock successfully defends its right to the trademarks from SC2. In this case Fred and Paul would be forced to work with Stardock and accept that the Ur-Quan universe would be part of Stardock's Star Control multiverse. The Origins versions of the UQM aliens would be allowed to resemble their UQM selves more closely, both in appearance and history (since the copyright to these aliens would be licensed from Fred and Paul). That way, the Origins universe would feel less like an equivalent to the Ubisoft continuity for (Heroes of) Might and Magic. However, it is still unknown whether Fred and Paul would agree to work on these terms.

And for the record, I also think it was wrong for Fred and Paul to attack user-created content in Origins and GalCiv. Stardock's games aren't the only ones where the fan community has recreated characters from other copyrighted works, so I don't think that Stardock's games should be singled out as targets for a perceived copyright violation on these grounds. Implying that there was something wrong about GalCiv being inspired by SC2 was a bad idea too (it's very unlike Fred and Paul to say that, since they have always been open about their own inspirations).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:13:00 am by PRH » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #635 on: April 23, 2018, 07:02:35 pm »

Keep in mind that Stardock at first was pretty amenable to P&F's announcement for GOTP.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/10/11/star-control-ii-devs-finally-making-sequel/

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Four years ago Stardock acquired Atari's rights to Star Control.  I soon got to meet my hero, Paul Reiche.  He was, more than anyone else, the person who inspired me to become a game developer over 20 years ago.

Over the past 4 years, we have communicated regarding the progress of Star Control: Origins. He asked us not to try to make a sequel to Star Control 2 and said that he hoped one day to be able to return to the universe he and Fred Ford created.

Recently, Paul told me the good news: Activision was going to let him do a true sequel to Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters (i.e. Star Control III is not canon for that universe).

(The rest of the announcement, which is probably unedited, if not very close.) https://forums.starcontrol.com/485378/ghosts-of-the-precursors

Quote
Today, they posted the news publicly:  https://dogarandkazon.squarespace.com/

It's still very early but they will have all the characters from Star Control 2 plus new ones.  It's going to be called Ghosts of the Precursors.

For 4 years, people asked me why we weren't going to touch the Star Control 2 story.  Now you know. Smiley

As soon as they have an official site for it, we'll let you know.


So publicly, you have both sides supportive of GOTP, and calling it the "true sequel" to Star Control 2.

Even privately, things hadn't gotten all that tense yet. Paul and Fred weren't calling their game a Star Control game, and Stardock wasn't touching the original games. They had stepped on each other's lawn, but the discussion was still somewhat constructive.

Things went off the rails around the re-sale of the original games. Stardock just went ahead and sold them on Steam without really getting support from the Copyright holders, Paul and Fred. In Stardock's defense, the games had been sold on GOG for a while with Atari as a party to the agreement, but even that was dependent on Atari AND Paul agreeing to sell the games. If one side doesn't want them to be sold, that agreement falls apart.

The rest is really arguing about who messed up the negotiations around that sale. I think it's fair to sale both parties take some blame, but not necessarily equal blame, and it's hard to assess without knowing all the facts. All we know is the basic order of events: (1) Stardock puts them up for sale, (2) P&F object, (3) Stardock refuses, (4) P&F issue a takedown notice, (5) Stardock contests the notice.

That's the point at which Stardock sued Paul and Fred for Trademark infringement. And it's at that point that they edit their own announcements calling P&F's game a true sequel to Star Control 2.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:09:37 pm by rosepatel » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #636 on: April 23, 2018, 08:11:59 pm »

It does beg the question as to why Stardock doesn't just do that now. If I were to think like a business, it's because those "Star Control bundles" allowed them to make an announcement with another burst of press hits.

I think it has something to do with the nature of P&F's counter-suit.
That and I'm sure he doesn't want to take devs away from Origins so that they can go through the old DOS code with a fine toothed comb.

The two answers I get is either after Origins or after the legal battle is over.
____

Now that I think about it, my speculation is that P&F claim part of SC3 as theirs because of the licensed characters.
The judge wouldn't be too happy to see Stardock open licensing something perceived by P&F to be theirs during this process.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:18:07 pm by Serosis » Logged

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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #637 on: April 23, 2018, 08:23:51 pm »

I guess it's a shame. Paul and Fred also wanted to release SC3 open source, so it seems like there's buy-in from all the parties needed to actually do that.

There's literally nothing stopping them from making that agreement, with timeline to be determined, at the settlement conference. But you can imagine they could have had this conversation back in October, instead of Stardock re-releasing the games on Steam.
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Elestan
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #638 on: April 23, 2018, 09:36:37 pm »

Keep in mind that Stardock at first was pretty amenable to P&F's announcement for GOTP.

(The rest of the announcement, which is probably unedited, if not very close.)

So publicly, you have both sides supportive of GOTP, and calling it the "true sequel" to Star Control 2.

Even privately, things hadn't gotten all that tense yet. Paul and Fred weren't calling their game a Star Control game, and Stardock wasn't touching the original games. They had stepped on each other's lawn, but the discussion was still somewhat constructive.

I don't know if I would call the discussion constructive at that point.  The last email exchange we have is this one from October 6, in which Brad was insisting that the 1988 agreement was still active, giving him exclusive control over all of the Star Control IP, and proposing terms that were based on Stardock having that control.  Paul & Fred's reply made it clear that they fundamentally did not agree with him on any of those points.  This was not a minor issue, and both sides were certainly talking with lawyers by this stage.

What we don't know is what happened in the days between those emails and the public announcements a few days later.  Did one side or the other show some flexibility in their positions such that they could come to terms?  Was Brad as supportive of GotP in private as his public statements would suggest, or was he just putting up a good public face, knowing that P&F were making their announcement anyway? 

I normally try to take such statements at face value unless there is evidence to the contrary.  But in this case, we have evidence that on at least two occasions (the proposed terms in the Oct 6 email, and in its proposed settlement document), Stardock has insisted on being able to create a public-facing story that differed from the behind-the-scenes facts (note the requirement that Paul & Fred make a statement that they are "really excited for Star Control: Origins").  This suggests that maintaining appearances is a higher priority for Stardock than being candid, and makes it difficult for me to accept their other public statements at face value.  Hence, I'm withholding judgement on what was really going on until we see more of the behind-the-scenes emails.  Hopefully, they'll come out during the discovery process.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #639 on: April 23, 2018, 09:59:04 pm »

I guess it's a shame. Paul and Fred also wanted to release SC3 open source, so it seems like there's buy-in from all the parties needed to actually do that.

There's literally nothing stopping them from making that agreement, with timeline to be determined, at the settlement conference. But you can imagine they could have had this conversation back in October, instead of Stardock re-releasing the games on Steam.


I'm not a lawyer so I can't really see anything wrong with it but Stardock is seeking damages for the "trademark confusion".
I don't see anything in there that would allude to P&F paying Stardock back for the perceived damage to Origins.

Looks like a "let's call the whole thing off and put things back the way they were" settlement.
I think a gentleman's truce is long past after P&F called Brad a thief through a PR firm.
Then continued to rile the community up through their blog posts.

Some people don't see it that way but that's their point of view.

But I believe if P&F had been quiet from the start about the legal matters I'm sure that very settlement offer would have sufficed and been accepted.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #640 on: April 23, 2018, 10:57:53 pm »

But I believe if P&F had been quiet from the start about the legal matters I'm sure that very settlement offer would have sufficed and been accepted.

Yes, if we're to believe this conversation between Brad and Scott Tykoski, another Stardock employee, the summary in Fred and Paul's "Nope and Nope" post is close to what Stardock was originally aiming for.

One can only wonder now how far Brad is willing to go now that he's really angry, and what he is still willing to concede. One would hope that if Fred and Paul used their settlement offer as a starting point, added a public apology to Stardock and paid them their damages, they would accept it. Oh well, one can always hope for the best...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:03:26 pm by PRH » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #641 on: April 23, 2018, 11:28:06 pm »

I guess it's a shame. Paul and Fred also wanted to release SC3 open source, so it seems like there's buy-in from all the parties needed to actually do that.

There's literally nothing stopping them from making that agreement, with timeline to be determined, at the settlement conference. But you can imagine they could have had this conversation back in October, instead of Stardock re-releasing the games on Steam.

The copyright issue might come into play here.  If Stardock is concerned that any of the IP from the earlier games in SC3 might belong to a third party, their lawyers might object to them trying to relicense it.  I believe Brad said something about wanting an indemnification from P&F on such issues, and IMHO that doesn't sound like an unreasonable request.  Of course, in the trial, Stardock is insisting that they are the sole copyright holder to SC3, so those positions wouldn't be entirely consistent.

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I'm not a lawyer so I can't really see anything wrong with it but Stardock is seeking damages for the "trademark confusion".
I don't see anything in there that would allude to P&F paying Stardock back for the perceived damage to Origins.

I think this one is going to be tricky to bridge, because it requires first deciding whether it was fair use, and second what the appropriate damages are.  The first isn't entirely clear to me, and the second is entirely unclear- it requires making tons of guesses about a product that isn't even released yet, and whose sales could be legitimately affected by lots of different things, including bad press from Stardock's own legal actions.  That makes it really hard to say what a fair dollar value would be.

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I think a gentleman's truce is long past after P&F called Brad a thief through a PR firm.
Then continued to rile the community up through their blog posts.

The PR firm was a mistake, and an embarrassment to P&F, IMHO.  I'm curious if its statements were all cleared by them or not, and whether P&F are still using them at this point.  I also wonder if Brad would accept an apology for the PR firm's statements as a peace offering.

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But I believe if P&F had been quiet from the start about the legal matters I'm sure that very settlement offer would have sufficed and been accepted.

I'm not so sure.  P&F made it clear that they could not accept the 1988 agreement still being live, and based on the emails shown so far, it doesn't look like Stardock was willing to compromise on that point at that time.  Brad's more recent statements that nothing Stardock is doing depends on that agreement seem to me like a suggestion that they might have become more willing to compromise on it since then.

Yes, if we're to believe this conversation between Brad and Scott Tykoski, another Stardock employee, the summary in Fred and Paul's "Nope and Nope" post is close to what Stardock was originally aiming for.

One sticky point on that would be the unspoken assumptions in this item:
Quote from: dogar
* Fred and Paul won’t infringe on the Star Dock’s trademark and Stardock won’t infringe on Fred and Paul’s copyrights.

They'd have to agree on what this actually means about using the SC2 races and ships.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:41:08 pm by Elestan » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #642 on: April 23, 2018, 11:49:42 pm »

But I believe if P&F had been quiet from the start about the legal matters I'm sure that very settlement offer would have sufficed and been accepted.

That's what I alluded to upwards. This all went down not because of the GOTP announcement, but because of the dispute over the sale of the games.

You can imagine an alternative universe where Stardock never put the copyrighted games on Steam, and after talking it out they realized it was a better idea to release the games open source. Paul and Fred probably would have agreed, and then there would have been none of this. Of course, nobody floated the open source idea back in October, and the biggest irony is both of them have separately floated the same open source idea AFTER the negotiations went bad. They're actually on the same page. It's baffling.

Also, re: keeping it "quiet", first that's impossible once someone decides to sue you, because now it's a matter of public record. Second, if you honestly own something, and then someone else announces that it's up for sale, staying "quiet" is tantamount to letting someone else take your property. I agree that P&F's PR took a pretty shitty approach to it, but there's been plenty of shitty public behavior to sour the relationship.

Fact is, intelligent and reasonable people should be able to put their hurt feelings aside. Even if there's a dispute about whether (1) there's been damage to Stardock, and (2) it's caused by Paul and Fred, they could settle literally every other issue (Paul and Fred own the copyright, Stardock owns the Trademark, Paul and Fred don't call their game Star Control or market it as a sequel, and Stardock doesn't use the original aliens). They could then have a short hearing or even adjudication to assess whether the GOTP announcement was fair use, and if not, what the damage was.

Stardock is turning down a pretty decent settlement offer based on technicalities that any decent lawyer could negotiate and hammer out. If they decide to continue with this suit, it's 100% a choice.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:52:42 pm by rosepatel » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #643 on: April 24, 2018, 12:12:28 am »

But I believe if P&F had been quiet from the start about the legal matters I'm sure that very settlement offer would have sufficed and been accepted.

That's what I alluded to upwards. This all went down not because of the GOTP announcement, but because of the dispute over the sale of the games.

I'm skeptical of this, because those sales dollars are maybe in the low 10k$ per year, and that's just not enough money to start a legal war that's going to cost well into the 100k$.  I believe that there had to be another behind-the-scenes issue that was more important to Stardock that led them to fire the legal cannon, and retaliating for the DMCA on the old games was either the straw that broke the camel's back, or just a pretense, depending on how you want to slant it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:10:36 am by Elestan » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #644 on: April 24, 2018, 04:21:30 am »

Or they legally needed to maintain those sales in order to support their planned trademark usage later on, somehow, or something like that.
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