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News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

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Author Topic: My take on Stardock  (Read 69888 times)
Serosis
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #975 on: July 17, 2018, 12:02:18 am »

No, it's not illegal in any remote way, shape or form to voice a personal opinion about a company based on facts, nor to contact game blogs, nor to ask people to leave honest reviews.

No, it's not illegal. But the internet isn't bound by the Declaration of Independence of the United States. (Much less a website hosted on a university server in the Netherlands)
If Stardock wants to shut the UQM forum down because it has started hostile action then it will do so, regardless of your "free speech".

And I am damn sure Serge van den Boom (Admin, Main UQM dev) and the University which hosts UQM wouldn't want the kind of attention that you're dragging in.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:04:40 am by Serosis » Logged

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CommanderShepard
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #976 on: July 17, 2018, 12:05:25 am »

If Stardock wants to shut the UQM forum down because it has started hostile action then it will do so, regardless of your "free speech".

First of all, I'm pretty sure Stardock is a U.S. based company. Secondly, they absolutely do not have the right to spontaneously take down a website that voices any kind of opinion about them. They can request a cease and desist if they think any of the site's content infringes on their intellectual rights, and the only thing that would possibly do that is p6014, but they can't arbitrarily take away content and websites. If they could, they wouldn't even be in a legal dispute with Fred and Paul.

So moving on, it wasn't hard to find Activision's Skylanders forums here https://community.activision.com/t5/Skylanders/ct-p/skylanders-forums
These can be scoped out to get a sense for how strong Skylander's fan base is, how much they like Toys for Bob. Since these fans are already interested in a sci-fi game, if it's enough, we can beseech that community about fundraising the legal defense fund, so that's one step.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 01:04:15 am by CommanderShepard » Logged
Serosis
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #977 on: July 17, 2018, 12:36:55 am »

If Stardock wants to shut the UQM forum down because it has started hostile action then it will do so, regardless of your "free speech".

First of all, I'm pretty sure Stardock is a U.S. based company. Secondly, they absolutely do not have the right to spontaneously take down a website that voices any kind of opinion about them.

Code:
The company that holds the trademark to the name "The Ur-Quan Masters" can not shut down, at will, a website forum calling itself "The Ur-Quan Masters Forum"...

Say that out loud.
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CommanderShepard
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #978 on: July 17, 2018, 12:57:29 am »

If Stardock wants to shut the UQM forum down because it has started hostile action then it will do so, regardless of your "free speech".

First of all, I'm pretty sure Stardock is a U.S. based company. Secondly, they absolutely do not have the right to spontaneously take down a website that voices any kind of opinion about them.

Code:
The company that holds the trademark to the name "The Ur-Quan Masters" can not shut down, at will, a website forum calling itself "The Ur-Quan Masters Forum"...

Say that out loud.

I read it and it says "can not," though I don't have any reason to think that code is credible anyway since you haven't shown where you got it from.  

But even if it said it could, all that would mean is that the name of the site would have to be changed and that's it. Stardock can't legally hack the servers the site is hosted on and force it to shut down, they can only request that the owner takes the name down, and that's if the name isn't changed in the event that they could request it. Beyond that, they could request that the server host takes the site down if they have more legitimate grounds. I've seen crease and desist letters before, they can't permanently shut down a website at will, they can only ask for content to be removed, such as well, mainly just the banner of this site. Otherwise there's not much else here that can be construed as explicitly representing the UQM franchise.

Take a look at this site here https://www.codforums.com/

Activision is way bigger than these guys, but the fans can still use that name for fan site with the franchise's images as long as it's "codforums" and not explicitly "Call of Duty"
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:29:12 am by CommanderShepard » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #979 on: July 17, 2018, 01:42:41 am »

I don't know about many of you, but actively inciting a review-bomb on this forum should be a bannable offense.

Just to be clear, I in no way condone anyone leaving an untruthful or deceptive review.  With that said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with people deciding to leave truthful but negative reviews, or advocating for a boycott based on a shared view that Stardock's legal actions are inappropriate (though I would suggest using a different thread for such things).  Stardock is actively attacking the IP foundation upon which this community was founded, and we have every right to take whatever legal actions we desire in order to resist or protest against those attacks.

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Do you think Stardock would take it kindly if it were to find out a review bomb started right here?  Do you think it would just let this forum stick around after being that hostile?  Other people in this thread are worried about Stardock shutting UQM down, which Brad far and away does not want to do, so don't become a reason for it.
...before you get this place in some real trouble.
If Stardock wants to shut the UQM forum down because it has started hostile action then it will do so, regardless of your "free speech".
Code:
The company that holds the trademark to the name "The Ur-Quan Masters" can not shut down, at will, a website forum calling itself "The Ur-Quan Masters Forum"...

So, you are clearly indicating that you believe that we should all be so scared of Stardock that we must censor ourselves in order to avoid doing anything to offend them.  You can certainly take that position if you like; given your desire for Brad to release SC3, you have more incentive than most to want to keep his favor.  But their trademark claim on "The Ur-Quan Masters" has never been proven in court, and until it is, none of us are under any obligation to respect it.

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And I am damn sure Serge van den Boom (Admin, Main UQM dev) and the University which hosts UQM wouldn't want the kind of attention that you're dragging in.

I think that it would be best not to presume to speak for Serge.

Speaking only for myself, I find the very idea of a community censoring itself to avoid upsetting a company to be offensive.  It was UQM's independence from corporate control that made me such a fan of the project in the first place, and this is why I find Stardock attempting to trademark our name to be so fundamentally repugnant.  Brad claims to be a member of this community, but in my opinion, as long as he is attempting to subordinate us to his control, his actions cast him not as a community member, but as an outside aggressor attempting a hostile takeover.  Should his trademark claims prevail (which I believe is unlikely unless P&F run out of money), I would be in favor of shutting the project down until we can rename whatever needs to be renamed to get out from under his thumb.
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CelticMinstrel
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #980 on: July 17, 2018, 02:20:33 am »

*sigh* ahh where to start, so the Trolls / Social Justice Warriors / etc have come out of the woodwork even more...
This instantly predisposes me to believe you're the troll. People who speak of "social justice warriors" are usually people who are sick of getting called out on their trash opinions or actions. I can't be certain that you're one of those people, but...

As for Serosis, every time I see you pop into this thread I think, why? If you don't like discussions of the legal situation, why can't you just ignore this thread?
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Serosis
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #981 on: July 17, 2018, 02:21:35 am »


So, you are clearly indicating that you believe that we should all be so scared of Stardock that we must censor ourselves in order to avoid doing anything to offend them.  You can certainly take that position if you like; given your desire for Brad to release SC3, you have more incentive than most to want to keep his favor.  But their trademark claim on "The Ur-Quan Masters" has never been proven in court, and until it is, none of us are under any obligation to respect it.

I'm more afraid for the future of the forum if it becomes actively hostile.
I love working on the MegaMod as I have been working on the UQM source code for the last 13 years.
My desire for CommanderShepard to simply STFU is a selfish one.

I actually have a very antagonist relationship with Brad and I'm surprised he hasn't booted me from the founders project.
I'm always bitching about something I think the game should or shouldn't be doing and I go to great lengths to make my voice as loud as possible in that context.

I just don't want the forum to turn into a 4chan-type where it basically becomes this base of operations for witchhunts, brigades, and group DDOS attacks.

As for Serosis, every time I see you pop into this thread I think, why? If you don't like discussions of the legal situation, why can't you just ignore this thread?

Because maybe if it were only about the legal talk then I could ignore it.

But no, we got CommanderShepard trying to organize "friendly" review bombs and finding ways to hurt another game because he's butt-hurt over a legal dispute that's not connected to him.

Now there maybe be an answer that goes along the lines of:
Quote
but StArDOCk IS PrevENTinG p&F FrOM MakiNg uQm2 aND tHat affecTs me BecausE noW i WoNt Be able to PlaY UqM2.

Which is false. Stardock is preventing P&F from making a game with a name "Ghosts of the Precursors" and are preventing P&F from associating themselves with Stardock's current trademark.

P&F can still go out and make UQM2 as long as they call it anything but "Star Control" and "Ghosts of the Precursors".

They could make "The Ur-Quan Masters II: Spectres of Eons Past" right now and be perfectly fine.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:31:04 am by Serosis » Logged

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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #982 on: July 17, 2018, 03:03:17 am »

I just don't want the forum to turn into a 4chan-type where it basically becomes this base of operations for witchhunts, brigades, and group DDOS attacks.

That's reasonable; I would oppose all of those as well, but there's a big difference between a boycott and a DDOS attack (the latter is illegal, for one).

Quote
Which is false. Stardock is preventing P&F from making a game with a name "Ghosts of the Precursors" and are preventing P&F from associating themselves with Stardock's current trademark.
P&F can still go out and make UQM2 as long as they call it anything but "Star Control" and "Ghosts of the Precursors".
They could make "The Ur-Quan Masters II: Spectres of Eons Past" right now and be perfectly fine.

You realize that you're missing the same caveat that Brad often omits:

"If any future games come out that continue the UQM story, it will happen under Stardock's supervision or not at all." - Frogboy, April 24, 2018.

If Brad were really willing to drop the trademark infringement claim and concede the unregistered marks in exchange for them dropping the GotP name, I'd tell them to take the deal.  But that's not what he's offering.  He wants them to give up that name, and concede that he controls all of the other names, including "The Ur-Quan Masters", and that's not even close to reasonable, given all the reasons discussed earlier in this thread why his claim is legally questionable.
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Serosis
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #983 on: July 17, 2018, 03:15:41 am »

What I believe Brad meant is that he would want to make sure that a game made by P&F that follows the UQM story doesn't interfere in any way with the development, launch, and ongoing maintenance of Origins.

But I wouldn't presume to put words in his mouth, he could very well mean that he would want P&F to work under the distribution and control of Stardock.

Which wouldn't be bad in itself. But P&F seem to be very prideful of SCII/UQM so they probably would choose to not make UQM2 if they could only make it under the supervision of Stardock.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #984 on: July 17, 2018, 03:27:41 am »

What I believe Brad meant is that he would want to make sure that a game made by P&F that follows the UQM story doesn't interfere in any way with the development, launch, and ongoing maintenance of Origins.  But I wouldn't presume to put words in his mouth, he could very well mean that he would want P&F to work under the distribution and control of Stardock.

In any event, it's far from the case that P&F could be free of future trouble simply by dropping the GotP name.

Quote
Which wouldn't be bad in itself. But P&F seem to be very prideful of SCII/UQM so they probably would choose to not make UQM2 if they could only make it under the supervision of Stardock.

I don't consider the defense of one's independence to be a prideful act (I would consider it a matter of dignity, not pride).  To be honest, the fact that you don't seem to place much value on maintaining the independence of either this community or P&F's efforts seems very alien to me, though I respect your right to have those views.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #985 on: July 17, 2018, 03:29:20 am »

I'm more afraid for the future of the forum if it becomes actively hostile.
I don't see that anyone is making it hostile, these are all reasonable discussions.

My desire for CommanderShepard to simply STFU is a selfish one.
Never mind, you made it hostile for no good reason.

I actually have a very antagonist relationship with Brad and I'm surprised he hasn't booted me from the founders project.
I'm always bitching about something I think the game should or shouldn't be doing and I go to great lengths to make my voice as loud as possible in that context.
I've talked with Stardock and they seem open to people expressing different game options, so I don't see why you'd be booted unless you were hostile.

I just don't want the forum to turn into a 4chan-type where it basically becomes this base of operations for witchhunts, brigades, and group DDOS attacks.
I don't see that it would be, operations would eventually move to private conversations.

As for Serosis, every time I see you pop into this thread I think, why? If you don't like discussions of the legal situation, why can't you just ignore this thread?

I've gotten some useful information here, but more so from Stardock itself. UQM should be fine.

But no, we got CommanderShepard trying to organize "friendly" review bombs and finding ways to hurt another game because he's butt-hurt over a legal dispute that's not connected to him.
It seems like you're forgetting that I didn't make this dispute up, it's Fred and Paul that raised concerns, possibly warranted. I'm inclined to support them if UQM is attacked, but it seems Stardock is only interested in the SC title, not UQM, so these forums are free to retain the UQM title and make a UQM fan version. Given that Fred and Paul have access to UQM, I am wondering why they want to raise a dispute over the SC title, but it could be they don't want conflicting storylines as they've probably spent a lot of time thinking about them.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 01:06:18 am by CommanderShepard » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #986 on: July 17, 2018, 03:40:31 am »

It seems like you're forgetting that I didn't make this dispute up, it's Fred and Paul that raised concerns, possibly warranted. I'm inclined to support them if UQM is attacked, but it seems Stardock is only interested in the SC title.

If it were only about the SC title, we would be spectators on the conflict, and things would be much more peaceful.  You might want to read the fan FAQ on the dispute.  Essentially, Stardock is claiming trademark rights (which it is trying to register) on the name of every character and alien race in SC2, and on the phrase "The Ur-Quan Masters", as well as claiming that Accolade's original exclusive copyright license never terminated.  If they fully prevail, the UQM universe would become untouchable without their permission.
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #987 on: July 17, 2018, 03:42:05 am »


If it were only about the SC title

I just spoke with Stardock and they said it's only the SC trademark. I need to double check and make sure, but that's what I was directly told on discord. So for now it looks like there's no major problems and we can forget about the whole thing.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:10:15 am by CommanderShepard » Logged
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #988 on: July 17, 2018, 04:07:00 am »

If it were only about the SC title
I just spoke with Stardock and they said it's only the SC trademark. I need to double check and make sure, but that's what I was directly told on discord.

Unfortunately, I've found that Stardock's representations about the suit tend to be misleading.  Take, for example, the link in my earlier post, which is a direct quote from Stardock's CEO and owner.  For that matter, if you go to the FAQ, there are links from there to all of the trademark registrations that Stardock has filed for; you can go read those for yourself.  If they're telling you it's just about the "Star Control" name, they're not being forthright with you.
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CommanderShepard
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Re: My take on Stardock
« Reply #989 on: July 17, 2018, 04:11:06 am »

If it were only about the SC title
I just spoke with Stardock and they said it's only the SC trademark. I need to double check and make sure, but that's what I was directly told on discord.

Unfortunately, I've found that Stardock's representations about the suit tend to be misleading.  Take, for example, the link in my earlier post, which is a direct quote from Stardock's CEO and owner.  For that matter, if you go to the FAQ, there are links from there to all of the trademark registrations that Stardock has filed for; you can go read those for yourself.  If they're telling you it's just about the "Star Control" name, they're not being forthright with you.

It is possible, but I'll double check with others to make sure, I remember that Fred and Paul said Stardock was untruthful about waiting to receive their blessing in a blog post.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 06:52:25 am by CommanderShepard » Logged
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