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Topic: Stardock Litigation Discussion (Read 136819 times)
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Krulle
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*Hurghi*! Krulle is *spitting* again!
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Sounds like the Star Control trademark remains with Stardock, but the UQM trademark application changes hands to F&P and the UQM Open Source project.
The other trademark applications will likely be pulled/stopped/withdrawn.
I wonder how much the attorneys can bill now. (And to whom.) But likely I'll never get to know the answer.
But I am happy, that the worst of this mess seems to be over, and that now both sides can focus on their respective projects and get going.
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Ariloulawleelay
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I'm really not sure at this point. I really doubt that Stardock would let the terms of the settlement go public unless it was a win for them.
I agree -- as such, things are not looking great for my bet here. However, as Stardock has long held that R/F has no copyright interests whatsoever in SC1, SC2 and SC3, that the settlement should affect those games' availability at all is a concession to R/F.
Which likely means they've now seized some of the SC2 aliens for their game, gained some kind of financial interest in P&F's new game, or both.
Just to be clear, my wager is on the former. Stardock would have little incentive to settle in a way which would leave it open to another lawsuit, so I suspect that Stardock's past sales of the Classic games (and the purportedly derivative SCO, for that matter) have been legitimized and Stardock's use of R/F's characters -- including, without limitation, the Ur-Quan, the Orz, the Yehat, the Spathi, the Syreen, the Arilou Lalee'lay, the Chenjesu, the Melnorme (f/k/a Mael-Num), the Precursors, Commander Hayes, and the Earthling Cruiser -- and other IP has been retroactively licensed by R/F.
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Ariloulawleelay
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I think that the response given by R/F when approached by Stardock about SCO was very similar to the response given by R/F when they were approached by Accolade about SC4. "No" was meant to be their initial position, not their final answer; R/F were willing to let Stardock use their materials, for the right price. I am skeptical of this. Paul's emails to Brad (ca. Sep. 2013) do not suggest to me that he is inviting an offer; they seem like flat refusals, full-stop: Fred and I are just not comfortable handing over our world to be developed by others. We’ve been discussing this for almost 20 years and we’ve always regarded a return to Star Control as our dream project – something we’d work on as soon as we found the opportunity. I know this will be a disappointment for you and your team, but Fred and I still have a Star Control plan and we’re not ready to give it up yet.
I appreciate your point; I saw it as a difference in style rather than in substance, but you may well be correct.
"[W]e think it[']s a better idea for [Accolade] to move on to an entirely new fiction and style of game, either under the trademark Star Control or an entirely new line. Personally, Fred and I would prefer the latter, but it's entirely up to you, and your team.
Such a split would benefit Fred and myself, because we believe that over the long haul the Star Control universe has value significantly in excess of what you can offer us, and some day we'd like to explore those opportunities. By accepting your proposed deal, we would lose this chance forever.
Thank you, George [MacDonald, Senior Producer at Accolade], for your ongoing support of Star Control, and please express our thanks to the SC4 team as well. I hope that the new vistas which open up in the absence of the SC universe represent to your team an exciting challenge and creative opportunity, and not a bummer.
It took less than a month for the parties to agree on a framework which became Addendum No. 3.
It's worth noting that at the time the SC4 contract was signed, the sales term of the original (exclusive) 1988 contract was still active (per P&F's countercomplaint, the royalties did not drop below the $1000 trigger point until years later). Consequently, Accolade had a much stronger negotiating position than Atari would a decade or more later, after that agreement had expired.
From what I recall, a large component of Accolade's strength in the 1997-98 negotiations was that SC3 had performed so poorly -- despite a decidedly more Solomonic approach than that of Stardock, Accolade simply couldn't justify paying R/F what the two thought Star Control was worth (either for a license, or for the copyrights themselves). The end result was that Addendum No. 3 gave R/F less cash, but more rights to the underlying IP.
The real question: will we see Ra-Gar in a future game? And, if so, whose??
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rosepatel
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Keeping in mind we're about to find out very very soon... I'll speculate just for the sake of the entertaining discussion.
Which likely means they've now seized some of the SC2 aliens for their game, gained some kind of financial interest in P&F's new game, or both.
Just to be clear, my wager is on the former. Stardock would have little incentive to settle in a way which would leave it open to another lawsuit, so I suspect that Stardock's past sales of the Classic games (and the purportedly derivative SCO, for that matter) have been legitimized and Stardock's use of R/F's characters -- including, without limitation, the Ur-Quan, the Orz, the Yehat, the Spathi, the Syreen, the Arilou Lalee'lay, the Chenjesu, the Melnorme (f/k/a Mael-Num), the Precursors, Commander Hayes, and the Earthling Cruiser -- and other IP has been retroactively licensed by R/F.
This is my bet too. I imagine the negotiations going something like this:
Paul and Fred want all the SC2 similarities gone from Stardock's games. That Stardock is in the legal wrong.
Brad says that there are no SC2 similarities. That it's a matter of interpretation. That P&F are in the legal wrong.
Paul and Fred say their main goal is to protect their universe, so that they can have control over their own story.
Brad says his goal is the same. He doesn't want any more DMCA threats over Star Control: Origins.
Paul and Fred say they can't promise that, because they don't know what Stardock is going to add.
Brad says he doesn't need to overtly add the Orz or the Ur Quan. But that precursors/observers/etc. are fair game. And it's too late to remove them now.
Paul and Fred begrudgingly accept the similarities to SC2's hyperspace, let alone precursors, the melnorme, and the arilou. Need assurances it stops there.
Brad agrees to go (barely) much further with SCO's similarities to SC2, as long as P&F don't sue for existing similarities.
Paul and Fred agree not to sue, if Stardock can stand by their promise, and allow P&F to review Stardock's game and DLC to make sure they keep their word.
Brad says that effectively means that P&F will give SC:O their seal of approval, and are effectively consultants on the project.
Paul and Fred shuffle around uncomfortably. But have no other substantial objections.
And that creates the license: Stardock pays P&F a small licensing fee. Stardock can include precursors, observers, and info-brokers, and other superficial similarities between aliens and lore (Rainbow Worlds, Tzo Crystals, dimensions "above" and "below", SC2-style hyperspace, Commander Hayes, etc.).
Stardock throws Paul and Fred in the credits for SCO, and pushes it to every media outlet that will mention it.
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« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:23:07 pm by rosepatel »
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Narsham
Zebranky food
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Ars Technica has details on the settlement: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/06/stardock-and-star-control-creators-settle-lawsuits-with-mead-and-honey/
And Paul and Fred comments on the process and settlement: https://www.dogarandkazon.com/blog/2019/6/11/the-only-way-to-win-is
Paul bypassed the lawyers and started off by talking to Brad about bees and mead. (As a part of the settlement, Brad must provide honey to Paul, who in turn will make it into mead and provide mead to Brad.)
No money changing hands. All the trademark disputes, creator disputes, copyright disputes, etc, are dropped. The SCO universe will continue as the Star Control franchise, while the P & F games will be in the Ur-Quan Masters franchise. Origins will continue, and Paul will contribute some writing to a future game (he says he'll create some alien races for Stardock). Ghosts of the Precursors will be developed but under another name. Stardock can continue to sell the SC games and will split royalties equally with P & F. (This agreement appears to include SC 3, which is a bit of a concession to P & F if one assumes anyone ever purchases it again.) Valve and GOG portions of the suit are settled, too.
This forum might like this paragraph from the Dogar and Kazon site:
Stardock, and Brad in particular, is supportive of Paul and Fred owning the Ur-Quan Masters trademark. All of us are committed to support the current UQM team and project, including their having a free, perpetual right to use the Ur-Quan Masters trademark for their amazing fan-powered recreation of the original game.
Paul also says he played SCO for 50 hours and enjoyed it. I am guessing this endorsement was not required by the settlement. Paul seems like a wonderful human being.
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Elestan
*Smell* controller
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P&F have posted a summary of the settlement terms
Key highlights include:
* Stardock will create new games in the Star Control franchise.
* Paul & Fred will create new games in the Ur-Quan Masters franchise.
* To help differentiate the two franchises Paul volunteered to create a few new alien races for Origins.
* Brad offered to help Fred and Paul with technology.
* Both sides recognize each other’s copyrights and will not challenge them in the future.
* Stardock is dropping all trademark registration of the alien names and won't use the described aliens without permission from Paul & Fred.
* Star Control, Star Control II, and Star Control III will be coming back for sale by Stardock so that fans of all ages can enjoy the classic games in their original form. Paul and Fred will split royalties equally with Stardock.
* Both sides will support the current UQM team and project.
* Stardock accepts that Paul & Fred are the creators of Star Control and Star Control II.
* Paul and Fred will be changing the name "Ghosts of the Precursors" to something "a little less generic".
* A significant exchange of honey and mead.
All in all, this looks pretty good. Technically, the UQM core team could have a stronger claim to the UQM trademark than P&F have, but Serge indicated a while ago that he was willing to subordinate his claim to Paul's, and I think we can trust Paul not to get litigious with it. :-) Between that and the race trademarks being dropped, UQM and its clones should be safe from attack. P&F's universe is exclusively theirs, and renaming GotP at this point is a fairly minor concession.
One thing not mentioned is the status of the1988 agreement; it would be good to know if Stardock conceded that it was terminated. It would also be nice to confirm that there wasn't any licensing of Stardock's trademarks. It doesn't sound like there was, but any such licensing by P&F could set a precedent that could impact UQM.
"Brad offered to help F&P with technology" is an interesting item. That Brad would like to see the original aliens brought to the SC:O engine is no surprise (he's wanted that from the beginning), but I have to wonder if P&F want to risk mingling their IP with Stardock's. Their newfound rapport is great, but it might be tempting fate.
In any case, congratulations to the parties for finally settling the dispute; hopefully we'll start seeing and talking a lot more about games, and a lot less about lawsuits. I suppose I may have to demonstrate that I'm still capable of talking about the latter.
When all is said and done, Stardock appears to be coming out of the litigation with a few custom races from Paul and some mead. I suspect this will go down as some of the most expensive mead in the history of the computer game industry.
EDIT: Two other clauses are mentioned in the ArsTechnica article:
* "there are a few caveats around the Arilou" - It sounds like Paul agreed to let Brad have the Arilou in SC:O.
* "The agreement also includes some stipulation that Ford & Reiche go into a quiet period for a while"
I'm not thrilled by these - especially the idea that P&F might not be able to speak freely. But if it only pertains to announcements about their game, and is for a limited time, I'm not overly concerned.
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« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 05:09:18 am by Elestan »
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Frogacuda
Zebranky food
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It is clear that Paul is the real hero in this. Brad Wardell is mentally ill and not going to accept any scenario that he feels is a defeat or a concession. Paul realized this and gave Brad the necessary encouragement and pretense of friendship and flattery that he needed to extricate himself from the mess he created while still framing it as a "win."
In reality, of course, this is only a win for the lawyers. The settlement does not seem substantially different from the March 2018 settlement offer (with a couple of frivolous niceties thrown in), which itself doesn't seem all that different than the defacto understanding before any of this began.
So essentially Brad cost himself and his victims millions of dollars and wasted years of everyone's time that could have gone into making bigger, better games, because he refused to negotiate in good faith. But now he's running victory laps because Paul said he likes his game and his bees are cool.
Much respect for Paul for getting that done.
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rosepatel
*Many bubbles*
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Paul and Fred agree not to sue, if Stardock can stand by their promise, and allow P&F to review Stardock's game and DLC to make sure they keep their word.
Brad says that effectively means that P&F will give SC:O their seal of approval, and are effectively consultants on the project.
Paul and Fred shuffle around uncomfortably. But have no other substantial objections.
And that creates the license: Stardock pays P&F a small licensing fee. Stardock can include precursors, observers, and info-brokers, and other superficial similarities between aliens and lore (Rainbow Worlds, Tzo Crystals, dimensions "above" and "below", SC2-style hyperspace, Commander Hayes, etc.).
Stardock throws Paul and Fred in the credits for SCO, and pushes it to every media outlet that will mention it.[/i]
Just quoting myself here and giving myself a pat on the back, and also pointing out the second last statement where I missed the real solutoin. It doesn't seem that Stardock gets some SC2 races. It seems Stardock, instead, gets Paul to fully consult on the creation of new races.
Stardock begged Paul and Fred to work with stardock for years, then sued P&F, until P&F offered to work with Stardock. It's a pretty shitty tactic that it succeeded.
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