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October 14, 2019, 08:25:57 pm
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News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

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Author Topic: Stardock Litigation Discussion  (Read 47383 times)
Serosis
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #630 on: June 14, 2019, 05:22:04 am »

You'll know the answer when the time comes.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #631 on: June 14, 2019, 04:25:43 pm »

should the forum take down the "News: Paul Reiche and Fred Ford want to continue the story they started when they created Star Control II — The Ur-Quan Masters. «Happy days and jubilation!» «But wait!» «There is something wrong here... something which makes my sheath retract and my talons ooze.» «Please, Captain, we need your help!»" at the top of the page now that everything is squared away?
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #632 on: June 14, 2019, 04:39:47 pm »

should the forum take down the "News: Paul Reiche and Fred Ford want to continue the story they started when they created Star Control II — The Ur-Quan Masters. «Happy days and jubilation!» «But wait!» «There is something wrong here... something which makes my sheath retract and my talons ooze.» «Please, Captain, we need your help!»" at the top of the page now that everything is squared away?

Yes, definitely.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #633 on: June 16, 2019, 02:46:38 am »

I honestly feel better about F&P getting themselves personally-financially free of this shit than even the fact the sequel is no longer in jeopardy.  Knowing that they were put through this treatment after all the good work they have done is very saddening.

It's like if a toddler stole your keys, and you had to distract him by dangling a new toy in front of them to get them back. F&P got their damn keys back, and they did it before running out of time and money, so that's the most important thing.

I find this description large and equal parts accurate and hilarious.

The current state of things leaves me with a very uncomfortable question: Would I buy the next Star Control game that Stardock has in the pipe?
[...]

Amongst your pros and cons on this matter, also consider the threat that such a loose cannon as stardock represents in the future if it maintains its interest in this universe and intellectual property.  The better its star control sales, the longer it will be before moving on from the franchise for good.  The settlement is no guarantee future legal action will never be launched by stardock over matters as petty as we now know it to be overly concerned with.

I'm personally a little bit disappointed that SC1 and SC3 have gone commercial again rather than open-source.

The source code for those two don't exist anymore, well, at least for SC1.

Are we sure this information is current even after the massive archive searches P&F had to go through at the beginning of the case?

Also, would it be legally a good idea to do a complete recreation of the game from scratch as was done with OpenRA, Open Imperium Galactica and Remnants of the Precursors if given P&F's blessing or would stardock approval also be required?
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Serosis
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #634 on: June 16, 2019, 09:22:07 am »

I'm personally a little bit disappointed that SC1 and SC3 have gone commercial again rather than open-source.

The source code for those two don't exist anymore, well, at least for SC1.

Are we sure this information is current even after the massive archive searches P&F had to go through at the beginning of the case?

Also, would it be legally a good idea to do a complete recreation of the game from scratch as was done with OpenRA, Open Imperium Galactica and Remnants of the Precursors if given P&F's blessing or would stardock approval also be required?

If P&F have it then I'm sure Serge & Co will be working with them to open source it.
Otherwise I believe the only legality someone would run in to recreating SC1 would be having to rename it.
Stardock only own the registered trademark and distribution rights, they don't have control over the content of it. Just like UQM.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #635 on: June 16, 2019, 10:00:36 am »

Yes, this outcome is definitely for the best. The current state of things leaves me with a very uncomfortable question: Would I buy the next Star Control game that Stardock has in the pipe? I genuinely have no idea. As an old fan who's painfully aware of the details of the lawsuit, I feel like my answer should be "no". As a profoundly selfish person and as a gamer who just wants his entertainment, my answer should be "yes". Knowing that Brad Wardell tried to trick the core team into handing over rights to UQM, that should be a hard "no" again. Also knowing that every person I've ever met is screwed up in some fashion and being a big believer in forgiveness, there's more reason for "yes". The lawsuit's resolution seems perfectly tailored to make this choice difficult, at least for me. A question for later.
That's also a good description of my thought process. I like space games, I'm also a big believer in forgiveness, and I don't particularly enjoy holding grudges. On the other hand, Wardell's bad behaviour both in regards to this lawsuit debacle and the UQM project (not to mention other incidents outside the scope of Star Control or this community) has been pretty longstanding and he's not really shown any contrition or even really acknowledgement that he did anything wrong that I've seen. And even though I think the notion of forgiving people even when they don't apologize is a noble one, I also don't like actively supporting people who act arrogantly, petulantly or unfairly when they show no regret for their actions (because it sets a bad standard).

So I think it's still going to be a no from me, but who knows. If nothing else, I'd consider at least buying a new game on Humble Bundle and sending the cash charity-wards.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #636 on: June 16, 2019, 11:12:46 am »

That's also a good description of my thought process. I like space games, I'm also a big believer in forgiveness, and I don't particularly enjoy holding grudges. On the other hand, Wardell's bad behaviour both in regards to this lawsuit debacle and the UQM project (not to mention other incidents outside the scope of Star Control or this community) has been pretty longstanding and he's not really shown any contrition or even really acknowledgement that he did anything wrong that I've seen. And even though I think the notion of forgiving people even when they don't apologize is a noble one, I also don't like actively supporting people who act arrogantly, petulantly or unfairly when they show no regret for their actions (because it sets a bad standard).

So I think it's still going to be a no from me, but who knows. If nothing else, I'd consider at least buying a new game on Humble Bundle and sending the cash charity-wards.

The way I see it, Stardock is much more than just Brad Wardell. And by buying SCO you reward Stardock's creative efforts, not the lawsuit that's now concluded anyway.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #637 on: June 16, 2019, 12:01:12 pm »

To the Yes/No question on future Stardock games:
It'll be a no from me, until the F&P game has been released without interference from Stardock.

The biggest risk I currently see with this agreement, is that Stardock can continue now, while F&P have to wait a few years.
In-between, there's little to prevent Stardock from blowing up these issues again...
So, I'll be waiting beyond that point before playing Stardock games.

But I have to confess, due to my current life-style, I don't have time to play anything else than casual games anyway.
So, likely my conscious "no" would not have changed a single sale number anyway....
I hope in 6-8 years it'llchange...
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #638 on: June 16, 2019, 12:59:02 pm »

In-between, there's little to prevent Stardock from blowing up these issues again...

They are dismissed with prejudice. If Stardock tries to file a complaint against F&P again with the same claims as before, those claims would be rejected by the court immediately.

The fact that F&P will have to keep silent for a few years to let Stardock have its time in the spotlight does make me feel a bit uneasy, but I don't think Stardock would be able to keep F&P's announcements on hold indefinitely.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 01:01:56 pm by PRH » Logged
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #639 on: June 16, 2019, 07:15:24 pm »

The way I see it, Stardock is much more than just Brad Wardell. And by buying SCO you reward Stardock's creative efforts, not the lawsuit that's now concluded anyway.
That's a fair attitude, I'd agree that Stardock is more than just one person. On the other hand, last I knew it is Wardell's privately held company, so it's not quite like buying a game from a publicly held corporation with a CEO you might dislike but who is essentially just a very well paid employee of the organisation (and might very well be replaced in a few years anyway). There are concrete ways in which you are directly supporting Wardell the individual in buying Stardock games. If you take issue with EA CEO Andrew Wilson for any reason, buying EA games does not support him in the same way.

Obviously in the end, of all the things to take ethical stands on, space videogames are some of the least important. But for me, if I care about the games or the situation at all, I kind of have to factor this stuff into my decisionmaking.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #640 on: June 16, 2019, 10:10:21 pm »

In-between, there's little to prevent Stardock from blowing up these issues again...

They are dismissed with prejudice. If Stardock tries to file a complaint against F&P again with the same claims as before, those claims would be rejected by the court immediately.
This exact case, yes.
But a new announcement would cause new consumer confusion, and therefore is a new case, with a new alleged harm, and therefore not covered by this "with prejudice"....
That's what I'm afraid of....
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #641 on: June 17, 2019, 03:35:05 pm »

But a new announcement would cause new consumer confusion, and therefore is a new case, with a new alleged harm, and therefore not covered by this "with prejudice"....
That's what I'm afraid of....

This is precisely my fear as well.

I wonder if this was a motivation for Stardock requiring a change of name away from GotP.  Now any future announcement for a "new product" can justify a new lawsuit that circumvents the "old" and unrelated settlement.  At least in the mind of a CEO so experienced in the nuances of the law.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #642 on: June 17, 2019, 03:55:14 pm »

But a new announcement would cause new consumer confusion, and therefore is a new case, with a new alleged harm, and therefore not covered by this "with prejudice"....
That's what I'm afraid of....

I wonder if this was a motivation for Stardock requiring a change of name away from GotP.  Now any future announcement for a "new product" can justify a new lawsuit that circumvents the "old" and unrelated settlement.  At least in the mind of a CEO so experienced in the nuances of the law.

Presumably, the settlement document includes language prohibiting Brad from interfering with UQM2, as long as P&F don't use the phrase "Star Control" to announce it.

But I am concerned about the possibility of the disclosed settlement terms having been sugar-coated to make them more palatable to P&F's fans than the actual settlement language would be.  Why keep the document itself secret when all of the terms are supposedly public?  If there were business-sensitive numbers in it, those could be redacted, but not releasing the document at all just creates an opening for suspicion that there's something material being left out or misrepresented.
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #643 on: June 17, 2019, 10:46:15 pm »

I don't mind the actual document not being released.
I am sure that whatever the published (or to be published) normal-language information of the content of the agreement has been counterread by the lawyers...
I'm not afraid of that. More of a lack of a clause ensuring a certain non-interference with a project in its starting phase.

Likely both sides even put a "let us look first into your project" into the contract...

Anyway, we'll see how it plays out, what are 7 years more after 26 years of waiting?
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Re: Stardock Litigation Discussion
« Reply #644 on: June 18, 2019, 04:00:55 pm »

But I am concerned about the possibility of the disclosed settlement terms having been sugar-coated to make them more palatable to P&F's fans than the actual settlement language would be.  Why keep the document itself secret when all of the terms are supposedly public?  If there were business-sensitive numbers in it, those could be redacted, but not releasing the document at all just creates an opening for suspicion that there's something material being left out or misrepresented.

This has been bugging me too... very much so, in fact.

Anyway, we'll see how it plays out, what are 7 years more after 26 years of waiting?

Damn, do we have reason to believe it would be 7 years?
I would hope that at the very least, the settlement would allow P&F to silently work pre-production on their game immediately.
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