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Author Topic: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?  (Read 3161 times)
Matticus
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So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« on: April 16, 2003, 09:25:12 am »

Ok, so the Kzer-Za's Path of Now and Forever states that they enslave other sentients. These races choose to become thralls or fallow slaves. Supposedly they've dominated hundreds of different worlds. Now unless all of them have chosen to become slave-shielded, this means there are other thralls out there in the galaxy.

When the Kzer-Za move to another region of space, they may or may not take these thralls with them. I'm convinced that they tend not to do this, that they allow their thralls to at least remain in close proximity to their homeworlds. It's more difficult to keep track of slaves when they're spread all across the galaxy, and moving them around would needlessly complicate things anyway. This would explain why there weren't any "foreign" aliens in the first Ur-Quan war.

But such a thing would also mean that the Kzer-Za don't take along all of their forces. I mean, I wouldn't trust the thralls to just do as they're told unless there were at least a few hundred Dreadnoughts around to keep things in order.

If this is so, then there are still Kzer-Za out there with at least some battle thralls. So my question is what role, if any, were these Dreadnoughts expected to play in the Doctrinal War? The Kzer-Za were clearly losing... maybe they sent a call for reinforcements that, due to both the vast distances involved and possibly the time at which it was sent (after ten years? fifteen?), the other Dreadnoughts could not respond to in time. Or maybe only the closest ones arrived, and the rest were forced to thin their forces all along half the galaxy or else face the possibility of a slave revolt.

Perhaps more importantly, what part would these Kzer-Za play in the future? The Hierarchy technically would still exist, and I doubt the Kzer-Za involved would be happy to hear that both the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah main fleets have been defeated by former slaves. There's the possibility of another attack, this time with Dreadnoughts and battle thralls.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. =)
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Kohr-Ah_Primat
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2003, 10:41:27 am »

Once the call to arms went out, and the main Kzer-Za fleet neared the main Kohr-Ah fleet, I imagine all the other thralls were slave shielded forcefully, and the Kzer Za made their way here. It would either be shielded, or oblivion. Then the fleets left behind probably headed at max speed to the site of the Doctrinal War.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 12:58:28 pm »

Yeah. It'd be stupid to leave thralls behind, theyäd only get ideas while their masters were gone.. Maybe they even planned to let the other thralls out again later on, if they won...
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2003, 03:43:48 pm »

Actually, we know the Kzer-za left the thralls in this area alone and went to fight the Kohr-ah. So leaving the thralls alone is not unthinkable.

The Kzer-za could leave the thralls alone, with lots of probes to keep an eye on them (like the one near earth) and tell the thralls to behave or they'll come back and kill them all.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2003, 04:03:45 pm »

Yes, but the war against the Kohr-Ah took place in the same region of space so the Kzer-Za didn't actually leave them alone. The other thralls are located halfway across the galaxy... who knows how many years it would take for a probe to cross the galaxy in hyperspace (if it even had the fuel for that, which I doubt). Therefore, there would need to be a contingent of Dreadnoughts located close by just in case. Like I said, just a few hundred per region would probably be enough to maintain control.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2003, 08:53:43 pm »

Well, as for fuel, a little probe can have very high fuel efficiency. However, if a concerted effort was made, it could be intercepted.

Maybe the practice of taking battle thralls is relatively new, and up to now everyone got slave-shields.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2003, 06:19:43 am »

I've thought about this one for a while, and I believe that every last Ur-Quan is present in the doctrinal war. The Kzer-Za leave their slaves to their own devices, yes, but that doesn't mean the Kzer-Za are in any kind of danger. The Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts alone have no trouble steam-rolling through most opposition. In almost any given situation, the Kzer-Za also have the option of going into a fight with some support from their slaves. If that's not enough, they can always depend on the all powerful Sa-Matra. And then what? The up-start thralls get wiped out, setting an example for the rest of the galaxy.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2003, 06:39:16 am »

This is very true, Shiver.
The Sa-Matra is guarded by both Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah forces working together, as the battle between them is a matter of ritual rather than a matter of enmity.

If any upstart races -dare- to interfere, I am quite sure they would engage the Sa-Matra, point it at the race, blow them apart, and then simply continue the ritual dance.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2003, 07:19:20 am »

This doesn't seem possible given the Ur-Quan's stated goals.

In our twenty thousand years along the Path of Now and Forever we have dominated thousands of species, yes but we have saved hundreds from extinction.
You imagine the threat of unknown invaders, or alien pestilence borne on the solar wind.
We have seen these. But you do not acknowledge your own worst enemy, yourselves.
We have found dead worlds without number, planets ravaged by atomic fire or gaian collapse.
These planets were not rendered sterile by outside forces.
They bear sad testament to the effects of unrestrained instinct and emotion or simple ignorance.
We will prevent such mistakes.

This would have to be a continual process. If they left slaves up to their own devices they could start to redevelop a culture, which would lead to a unified identity, which would lead to a desire for independence. If there was nobody around to keep order then nobody could stop them from doing just that.

Also take into account it took 20,000 years for the Ur-Quan to traverse the galaxy. I realize they were a-conquering (or just plain a-killing) all along the way, but it would take a loooong time to traverse such a distance even in hyperspace. If the Ur-Quan heard about a slave revolt from, let's say, a probe, it could be a hundred years since that probe took flight. It would take less time for the Quans to get back to their slaves, but by this time there could be some sort of loose alliance between former thralls. It just sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth... why not just leave behind a few hundred Dreadnoughts to keep things in order?

The alternative would be to move the Sa-Matra... geez the resources expended in doing all this would be astronomical. It would just make more sense to leave some Ur-Quan behind. I mean, think of it... all those years returning to a former area of the galaxy (with the Sa-Matra in tow or not) are years they could spend conquering other races. Every precious year lost would be another year the Kohr-Ah gain over them. So it would make sense if they planned for this from the beginning. All things considered, it would just be more efficient to leave some Dreadnoughts behind to keep order than to have to keep going back every time there was a little chaos. The thralls could help keep an eye on slave shielded races (as the Spathi and Ilwrath were to do with Earth), but who would keep an eye on the thralls? The Ur-Quan would have to do such a thing.

Also, the enslaving of races is nothing new. After stating the Words, an Ur-Quan says:
...When the martyred genius Kzer-Za gave us the secret to defeating the Dnyarri, we destroyed them.
Then we decided that we would never again be slaves.
We would follow the Path of Now and Forever.
We decided to enslave or imprison all other intelligent life in the galaxy.

Enslave or imprison. The former would refer to battle thralls, the latter to slave shielding.

It just seems to me that all reason points to there being other Kzer-Za out there.

EDIT: Wow, I'm putting up a lot of resistance here. But I'm honestly looking to be convinced. Something logical, that works, and makes sense would do the trick.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 07:29:39 am by Matticus » Logged

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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2003, 09:15:06 am »

Hm...

If it took them 20,000 years you conquer their way over to the Crateris constellation, it wouldn't take as long to get back. Going backwards, they have friendly little outposts set up everywhere for them to refuel at and no opposition whatsoever. However, even then it would still take 1,000 years (rough guess, no calculations done) at the absolute minimum. So I guess you do have a point. It's a little difficult for me to imagine an Ur-Quan sitting around in the boonies while the doctrinal war is going on, but I think you might be right. I wonder what the Kzer-Za guards would do to pass time. Since they're in charge of all the species in the area, they can live a life of unimaginable luxury. But there's one problem with this: they're Ur-Quan. It's not in their nature to enjoy anything without an element of conquest to it. The question should be "So what the heck do the Ur-Quan do out in the boonies?"
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 09:16:07 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2003, 11:47:53 am »

I still think that the Kzer-Za simply Slave Shield all their races before moving out of a region of space. They use their Battle Thralls to destroy any resistance then, once all resistence is wiped out, systematically and forcibly Slave Shield their Battle Thralls. No need to waste resources with keeping a guardian fleet around; a few automated probes in orbit armed with fusion bolts would easily crush any resistence should a shield be breeched, which would be a highly unlikely event in any case.

The reason the Ur-Quan didn't do this to their Battle Thralls in our region of space is because they simply didn't have time. The Kohr-Ah showed up right at the end of the Great War, possibly even before (it may have been the arrival of the Kohr-Ah that was the impetous for the Kzer-Za to use the Sa-Matra against the Chenjesu and Mrnmmrmmn). The Kzer-Za simply couldn't spare the time needed to subjugate their Battle Thralls -- after all, if they won they could easily come back and forcibly shield all of them later. If they lost... it wouldn't matter..
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2003, 12:16:21 pm »

Pretty much in verbatim with my opinion.

Though losing the Doctrinal War basically would mean the Kzer-Za admitting that the Kohr-Ah way is right, and all sentient beings are meant to be destroyed. So there would be no need to worry about shielding their thralls when they 'should' be destroyed anyway.

Though the Kzer-Za who encounter you after losing the battle aren't exactly malicious towards you. I suppose after eons of having 'pet' slaves and then finally realizing they have to be killed for the good of your race, it's hard for them to forsake your race without feeling a bit pity for you and guilty at having failed your 'pets'.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2003, 12:34:47 pm »

I don't think it takes that long to travel around the galaxy, hyperspace is really fast.  It takes about four days to make it to alpha centauri (4 light years away).

Given the milky way is 100,000 light years across (D not R), its 314000 light years to circle it, thats (at a rate of 1 light year a day) only 860 years.  Thats not factoring any sort of quasi space, or just flooring it the whole way.

Remember UQM takes place in a quadrant of the galaxy thats 1/4 of it (1/8 if its 2x2x2)).  It doesn't take that long to to travel from edge to edge in the game (about 50 days).

I'm sure you could get to any point in the galaxy within a 5-10 years.

The reason it took so long to do it the first time is they have to check every planet of every system, and give the altamatum, wait for the responce, either distroy them or set up the shield, it takes a long time.  Maybe they started with a smaller fleet and it took a longer time to build up the speed and bulk of the current armada.

I think all the ships are at the battle, its too important to them.  Normally they would most likly leave some forces every here and there, but this one is for big prize.
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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2003, 12:48:17 pm »

Quote
I don't think it takes that long to travel around the galaxy, hyperspace is really fast.  It takes about four days to make it to alpha centauri (4 light years away).

Given the milky way is 100,000 light years across (D not R), its 314000 light years to circle it, thats (at a rate of 1 light year a day) only 860 years.  Thats not factoring any sort of quasi space, or just flooring it the whole way.

Remember UQM takes place in a quadrant of the galaxy thats 1/4 of it (1/8 if its 2x2x2)).  It doesn't take that long to to travel from edge to edge in the game (about 50 days).

I'm sure you could get to any point in the galaxy within a 5-10 years.

The reason it took so long to do it the first time is they have to check every planet of every system, and give the altamatum, wait for the responce, either distroy them or set up the shield, it takes a long time.  Maybe they started with a smaller fleet and it took a longer time to build up the speed and bulk of the current armada.

I think all the ships are at the battle, its too important to them.  Normally they would most likly leave some forces every here and there, but this one is for big prize.


Not just a big prize... this is to defend your whole way of life. Your principles, your beliefs. The very core of what makes you you. Noone fights more tenaciously (as I mentioned before) as they do when their belief system is threatened. You could even state that every major war in humanity's past has at its heart been caused by a threat to one side's beliefs. (or both side's beliefs)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 12:49:21 pm by Kohr-Ah_Primat » Logged

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Re: So where are the rest of the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2003, 06:11:54 pm »

Quote
I still think that the Kzer-Za simply Slave Shield all their races before moving out of a region of space. They use their Battle Thralls to destroy any resistance then, once all resistence is wiped out, systematically and forcibly Slave Shield their Battle Thralls. No need to waste resources with keeping a guardian fleet around; a few automated probes in orbit armed with fusion bolts would easily crush any resistence should a shield be breeched, which would be a highly unlikely event in any case.

If this were the case, it would be a solution to keeping conquered races at bay. The only problem is that it's based mostly on conjecture. There is no conversation or event in the game that alludes to or implies that the Kzer-Za slave shield every race regardless. Consider how much care the Kzer-Za take to make sure each race gets to choose its fate (enslavement or imprisonment). If every race is to end up slave shielded anyway, then why even let them make the decision? Just make them all fight and then slave shield them. That would result in the least expenditure of resources for the Kzer-Za anyway. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think the "quadrant" in SC2 represents a full 1/4 of the galaxy, especially when you consider that estimates put the number of stars in the Milky Way somewhere between 200 and 400 billion. =)
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