The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 13, 2019, 01:38:38 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  SCII balancing "cracked"
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: SCII balancing "cracked"  (Read 779 times)
LotBlind
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4



View Profile
SCII balancing "cracked"
« on: August 10, 2019, 04:24:42 pm »

Gemini tested the hypermelee in SCII to see if the points values are correct. Assuming that's close enough to UQM to post here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0Ja1iZms0
Logged
lostsoul
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 06:43:14 pm »

i thought shiver already figured this out?
Logged
LotBlind
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 04:56:23 pm »

Well actually, not all of what Gemini does is the first time it's been done: I think he does it for the sport. If there's a thread where shiver posted something similar, I couldn't find it just now. If you know where it is, I'm sure it'd be useful to compare.
Logged
lostsoul
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 08:29:46 pm »

https://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Shiver/Balance_Mod/List_of_Changes
Logged
LotBlind
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 05:36:39 pm »

Right, well these works, believe it or not, can actually completent each other. I don't see anything about AI vs AI in what shiver did, and also he's only indirectly answered the question "how much should each ship be worth" since he's implemented tons of changes as well. If there's anything like the table gemini compiled, I don't see it in what you linked.
Logged
Shiver
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 70



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 10:41:27 pm »

i thought shiver already figured this out?

Shh! This video is super interesting. I also don't recall ever trying to map out the odds of every match-up in PvP, which would really be more of a "Shiver vs Gekko" map if such a thing were ever attempted.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:21:15 am by Shiver » Logged
lostsoul
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 10:34:03 pm »

uh oh...i meant no disrespect...the more the merrier i say.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3830


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 04:36:44 am »

He says the AI's defects won't have a big impact… but it definitely flies some ships well and some very, very poorly (Kohr-Ah, Earthling). I haven't watched the whole video to see if he notes this. I'll get to it…
Logged
PRH
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 202



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 05:05:47 am »

He says the AI's defects won't have a big impact… but it definitely flies some ships well and some very, very poorly (Kohr-Ah, Earthling). I haven't watched the whole video to see if he notes this. I'll get to it…

Not to mention that the AI's defects are exactly what makes some ships (like Spathi) so crazily effective against the AI.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3830


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 03:24:28 pm »

Yeah. But my real complaint isn't that the AI is bad, it's that he took his results as solid anyway. For isntance, he called out the Supox as 'actually' being weak right after showing how the AI was flying it in a completely ludicrously stupid way.

I wonder if we could do a PVP version of this with enough dedicated netplay…
Logged
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1387



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 12:49:18 am »

Has there ever been any attempt(s) to write more sophisticated AI player code?

I wonder if we could do a PVP version of this with enough dedicated netplay…

I think it might take a more multiplayer-active community.  It is not just the total hours needed to play every possible match up so many times for a decent sample size.  You would need to only consider the results of battles between top players. Further, you would need many dozens of consistent online players to know that your top players are experienced and well rounded in their play styles.
Logged
Shiver
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 70



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 02:35:58 am »

I think it might take a more multiplayer-active community.  It is not just the total hours needed to play every possible match up so many times for a decent sample size.  You would need to only consider the results of battles between top players. Further, you would need many dozens of consistent online players to know that your top players are experienced and well rounded in their play styles.

We had a playerbase for net melee for a few years. It was less than dozens playing at all hours, and it was over than a decade ago, but we had one.

I would worry that statistics based off games between net melee experts still wouldn't be that helpful. The top players all use Utwig as a Kohr-Ah counter, but that match-up doesn't go anywhere unless the Utwig player's blocking game is on point. It's a lot harder to pull off against a Kohr-Ah player, even a shoddy one, than the cyborg. We could list "Utwig hard-counters Kohr-Ah" using empirical evidence and the lower 50% of players might never be able to replicate that.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3830


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 02:58:47 pm »

Yeah, it's complicated.
Logged
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1387



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 04:50:41 pm »

So then what about using an improved AI for mass testing?

Are there any community-developed improved "cyborg" players for UQM?
Logged
Shiver
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 70



View Profile
Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2019, 06:39:26 am »

Writing AI is said to be one of the most difficult parts of programming. There hasn't been much work done in this area by the fan community. I did a little for Project 6014 to get the Lurg Prawn to fight and made minor fixes to some of the core ships; e.g. stop Ur-Quan from launching fighters at cloaked Ilwrath. Anyone feeling motivated to write some AI is welcome to jump in and give it a try. A good place to start: Turn VUX into an actual threat for the campaign.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!