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Author Topic: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future  (Read 6770 times)
Krulle
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2003, 01:10:40 pm »

Regarding the common goals of the Ur-Quan:

No species is allowed to become a possible threat to any Ur-Quan. Noone is allowed to kill an Ur-Quan without need.

Therefor, neither Ur-Quan will destroy the other.
During the first doctrinal war, this would have happened, were it not for the discovery of the Sa-Matra. With this Battleship the Kzer-Za won the first doctrinal war. They negotiated rules for the next times they'd meet, to prevent an extinction of one caused by the other.

Regarding that both doctrines want the eternal freedom and safety of each Ur-Quan, I believe the Kzer-Za would retreat to think it over, perhaps found a Concordance of Alien Nations, bringing in all former slaves. Within this military alliance, everyone can ensure the others safety as well...

The Korh-Ah would be more difficult. Seeing their rather simple way of thinking (if they offer you a choice, it's after all no choice), they might have severe problems accepting this situation. They might flee and continue their path of destruction, thus not changing their way at all.
The Kohr-Ah also could come to the conclusion, that they need the thinkers and start to reform one nation with the Kzer-Za (changing from Black/Green back to Doers/Thinkers), thus strengthening the Ur-Quan kind with the excellent builidng capabilities of the Kohr-Ah and the brilliant research and bereaucracy of the Kzer-Za. Perhaps even  reuniting towards the brown original Ur-Quan over the next few thousand years.
Remember, both races have been believing that their way or the way of their siblings must be the only correct way to handle sentient beings for more than 20,000 years.
I cannot say what they'd do. I will have to wait for another SC3's for acceptable answers.




OT: Regarding the loss of 1/3 Kzer-Za fleet at the Blaze of Glory, i assume, the Kzer-Za doctrine would have been the winners doctrine.

Another OT: If the Kzer-Za would have won this second Doctrinal War, they would continue their path as well as the Kohr-Ah would. The second journey around the galaxy would be easy for the Kzer-Za (regarding that most would be destroyed by the Kohr-Ah) as well as for the Kohr-Ah (regarding that most would be enslaved). Therefor, when they meet for a third time, the Kohr-Ah would have had their way, because nearly everone would have been destroyed.

Another OT: The Kohr-Ah/Kzer-Za choice is like the Babylon5 choice of Shadows/Vorlon: evolution through destruction and rebuilding or evolution through cooperation.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2003, 04:03:23 pm »

regarding the last OT: the Kohr-Ah have learned from the shadows only the destruction part, they have no rebrith designs.

What we are dealing with here is a race of strong minded predatory and proud beings with doctrines that lasted ages.
There is no way they are going to surrender and forget their beliefs. The green Kzer-Za who are more proficient with negociations might devise a ponder of sorts with the NAFS, but they will not surrender - prefering to die before that.
The Koha-Ah who are less talkative would either:

Regroup, flee and try to reform in order to complete their doctrine.

or

Continue as if nothing happened to the Sa-Matra ignoring the Kzer-Za unless they interfere with their actions.

or

Attack the NAFS immediately with all their ships and power in a desperate last suicidal attack. The attackers will fight until death.

All of the options should involve the Kohr-Ah trying to kill everyone, the differences are in the way it is done.
This is due to the fact that (imo) they cannot change that fast and all they know is how to fight and rebuild themselves for the next fight.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2003, 10:27:57 pm »

I wager the Kzer-Za, after defeat, would begin moving around the galaxy again, as they did before. The Kohr-Ah, realizing filth was nearby, would attempt to annihilate it and THEN continue on. Ugh. Not much on conceptualism for the Ur-Quan. Maybe they'd cross-breed back into the original Brownies and then REALLY hose us, but I doubt that.


Here's something to chew on...

When the Kohr-Ah cleanse a planet, they kill all sentient life. Would they then inhabit the planet themselves? They kill sentients, but I don't think they'd extinguish all life on it's surface. Even if they did, they could just start colonies with equipment deposited on the surface from Marauders.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2003, 07:12:45 am »

Uh, I don't think they do. I mean, look at the Burvixese homeworld. Nothing but smoldering cities.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2003, 11:22:51 am »

Quote
When the Kohr-Ah cleanse a planet, they kill all sentient life. Would they then inhabit the planet themselves? They kill sentients, but I don't think they'd extinguish all life on it's surface. Even if they did, they could just start colonies with equipment deposited on the surface from Marauders.

There seems to be no evidence whatsoever of any Kohr-Ah colonies. Apparently the Kohr-Ah also go for quick strip-mining of near-surface deposits instead of long-term development. This makes sense for a civilisation that is continually on the move.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2003, 02:08:04 pm »

During or after their enslavement by the Dnyarri the Ur-Quan must have left their homeworld.

Regarding that all Ur-Quan wish to clear the galaxy of all dangers, i cannot believe that they would settle down somewhere, at least not the Kohr-Ah. They would get what they need to rebuild the fleet and move on to eliminate the next possible danger. So they are in no need of an homeworld any more, and at least the Kohr-Ah never will be again.

A military alliance under the influence of the Ur-Quan could give excellent protection to them as well. The Kzer-Za seem to be reasonable enough to understand that most species are not after their destruction. So I would guess that they could do it eith a military alliance. Just not enslavement any more...
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2003, 07:45:07 am »

Here's a disturbing thought...

Neither side wanted aliens to interfere in the Doctrinal War, and aliens most certainly did on numerous occasions.  Both Ur-Quan groups might decide this is a threat to Ur-Quan existence, join forces, and attempt to deal with the 'interlopers' using their own unique methods.  Once they're done 'dealing' with everyone, they'd go at it against each other again.  This would pretty much make it NAFS + non-Ur-Quan Hierarchy vs. Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah (since the Thraddash, as battle thralls, interfered, all Hierarchy members would be threatened).  This would still result in a race against time for the Ur-Quan (black or green) however; the NAFS and the rest of the old Battle Thralls have more than enough resources in their systems to mount an effective defense if given time and, if given a little more time, an effective offense as well.  The Utwig and the Supox would be hosed, though; their tactical position leaves few possibilities for direct reinforcement, the NAFS wouldn't have the strength right away to mount an effective assault on the other side of Ur-Quan space, the old Battle Thralls wouldn't move over to the NAFS side until after the Ur-Quan hit them, and the Utwig and Supox did the most damage in the Doctrinal War.  On the other hand, if the logistical support structure of the NAFS was sufficiently advanced to build a Mark II in a short amount of time, throw a big Avatar warp pod in the cargo hold, get the Arilou to modify it, and then Q-Space a small strike force to disrupt Ur-Quan efforts somehow before the Utwig and the Supox are overwhelmed... hmm... the number of kills against Ur-Quan forces might directly affect how long the Utwig and Supox have (none = month, month and a half maybe as the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah disengage, coordinate with each other, and then attack, almost instantly overwhelming Utwig and Supox resistance).  Then again, the question stands - how long would it take to build a Mark II, how long did the original captain take to recover, how long would it take to get the warp pod modified (about two weeks in SC2) , and how long would it take to get the resources to Vela?  

I think it'd ultimately depend on how much support the Yehat could give (going through hostile VUX space to provide it) how much of the Syreen Star Patrol is left after their run-in with the Mycon, how much help the Orz were willing to provide for their *happy campers* and how fast the Chmmr can get Avatars out.  If they went fast enough, they might be able to hit the Ur-Quan hard enough for the Ur-Quan to divert some forces away from Aquilae and thus prolong Supox and Utwig existence.

As for a role for the original captain... to tell you the truth, I'm not seeing the captain leading strike teams, at least right away.  Logistical support would be far more important to the NAFS than having a really expensive freighter with hundreds of crew risking its existence trying to make pot shots against Ur-Quan forces... I'd see the captain Q-Spacing a bunch of Yehat and Chmmr forces to predetermined coordinates or, to make things interesting, hyperspacing (Ur-Quan warp pods are the only ones good for Q-Space portal spawners?) with full thrusters and turning jets (blockade running!).  After all, with full thrusters, that ship could outrun anything in hyperspace, including Slylandro, and was significantly faster than almost anything in the NAFS arsenal; it'd improve travel time for Yehat ships almost three-fold.  

Just some more deep thoughts...
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2003, 01:12:01 pm »

Not possible though, because the factory is without it's main computer (you used that to control the ship).

Why the Ur-Quan would join, is that both doctrines have the highest priority towards the safety of all Ur-Quan's. No interferance in the doctrinal war allowed, because no-one is allowed to kill an Ur-Quan (except another Ur-Quan may do so if in a doctrinal war).

The question is: are the Kzer-Za willing to believe that the Kohr-Ah would understand the necessity. I wish to point out, how they react when they learn of the Neo-Dnyarri:

Quote
"It was as if I had fallen asleep, or unconscious."
"I felt like someone had control of my mind and my body."
This sounds all too familiar... yes, the nightmare begins again.
Perhaps we should contact the Kohr-Ah Primat, explain to her.
No, they will not believe. They are too stubborn and simple-minded.
They will not see the danger until it is too late!
Human, begone! Leave my sight! We must defeat the Kohr-Ah speedily so that we can attend to this new Dnyarri menace.

The Kzer-Za think that their brothers are too simple minded. (They have big brains after all, I believe they are far more intelligent than any non-Ur-Quan life in this part of the galaxy. Just their instincts might be a problem.)
And would the Kohr-Ah be happy under the command of the Kzer-Za, since they assume they'd have the command?

That are questions which can not be with the quotes given by the game.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2003, 07:59:18 am »

Oatworm: You mentioned hostile VUX space, and I don't think the Quans would spare ANY races. Therefore, I believe the forces remaining with the Hierarchy at the end of SC2\UQM would be intelligent enough to see that they would have to join the NAFS, flee their homeworlds, or be obliterated entirely. I'd imagine most would join the NAFS, giving a bit more power to the force, but would it be enough to defeat the combined forces of Quan and Quan?
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2003, 10:22:17 pm »

What of the Mycon? They willingly joined the Hierarchy, no conquering required.
I think I'd be pretty worried if there were hundreds of Dreads and Marauders in space, then thousands of Podships warped in as well.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2003, 04:42:30 am »

Well, most of their fleet was decimated by the Syreen. They'd need a bit of time to get back on their feet-equivalents before being able to do any damage. Presumably, the NAFS would neutralize the Mycon threat before this could happen.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2003, 04:55:26 am »

Hmm... I forgot that the main computer was in the Mark I... then again, the Mark II is alluded to in the finishing credits, so perhaps there's another main computer, or it was reverse-engineered by the Chmmr before they made their modifications?  This is all somewhat possible, if only speculation, but if it's true, then more Precursor service vessels could be built, and perhaps not just on Vela.  

The reason I'm assuming that remaining members of the Hierarchy are hostile is because I'm assuming that the members of the Hierarchy aren't going to realize that they're going to get slaughtered by Ur-Quan forces until they show up and start blasting things.  Keep in mind that many of these races hadn't heard directly from the Ur-Quan since the time period of SC1, yet they still remained loyal Hierarchy members.  This is the kind of fear instilled in these races by the Ur-Quan; NAFS captains probably wouldn't be listened to because NAFS captains are both unable and unwilling to instill that kind of fear.  

That been said, I agree that the Ur-Quan wouldn't spare any races; even so, I don't think they'd take them all on simultaneously but would instead focus their attentions on vulnerable NAFS races, like the Supox, Utwig, and ZoqFot, and then worry about old Hierarchy members if they happen to get in the way.  As someone before me said, the Ur-Quan aren't stupid - they aren't going to tick off their friends before they take care of their enemies.  

As for the Mycon, the reason they joined the Hierarchy is probably because they knew the Hierarchy wouldn't care what the Mycon did to other planets, while the original AFS would (especially the Syreen).  They didn't join because they just happened to like fighting with spiders.  Therefore, I highly doubt they'd jump in with the Ur-Quan unless it clearly served their best interest, and with the damage the Syreen did to the Mycon fleet, it would be a while before participating in offensive military action served their best interest.  Then again, they might want some revenge against the Syreen, but even if that became an overriding concern, the Mycon aren't a match for most NAFS ships anyways; the Pkunk can outrun them and their plasmoids easily enough, the Yehat can easily defeat a podship, they work great for crewing Syreen Penetrators... I mean, a well-piloted Shofixti can finish a Podship without using a glory device or any terribly complicated maneuvering.  In the end, were they to join forces with the Ur-Quan, they could do some damage, but I suspect it would be fairly inconsequential, especially depending on the timing of Mycon involvement (i.e. they might get involved too late for it to do any good or harm anyways).  

(Edited to add part about the Mycon)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 05:01:54 am by Oatworm » Logged
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2003, 04:16:31 pm »

Quote
Hmm... I forgot that the main computer was in the Mark I... then again, the Mark II is alluded to in the finishing credits, so perhaps there's another main computer, or it was reverse-engineered by the Chmmr before they made their modifications?

It was found (the grandchildren ask you how you found the Mark II (or was it III?)).

About the Mycon: The Mycon join the un-Voidable Non to learn it's weaknesses and then Void the Non. That's why they joined the Hierarchy. They'd as easily join the NAFS when they cannot defeat it.
But seeing that the NAFS qould allow independend states, they'd just quit the Hierarchy and be free again.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2003, 04:18:29 pm by Krulle » Logged
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2003, 05:14:30 pm »

There's another possibility regarding the mycon and the Quans:
The mycon could find the similarities between them and the black Ur-Quans more than coincidental and decide to join them in the cause ( and what better way could one have for destroying races than using deep children on their colonies and marauders and podships on their fleets).
The Kohr-Ah might actually agree to that, seeing their weakened state and the formation of the NAFS.
I think the NAFS would have to fight two groups of enemies.
The dissolving old Heirarchy and the new PoNF heirarchy.
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