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Author Topic: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the story  (Read 37018 times)
Chad
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2003, 08:23:01 pm »

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Has anyone ever had to fight so many ships that you just gave up and started the game over?


Of course. If you played SC2 properly (not cheating and not using spoilers), I think everyone ran into this.  And the frustration of not saving in a few hours and losing all that work
Tongue

I like this idea, just so long as the "ships" give up after awhile.  I don't like the idea of 100 Ur-Quan chasing me through Pkunk Space.  Or 50 Probes chasing me for the rest of the game.  Easy way to get around this is that once you leave their sphere of influence, they give up.  I.e. they have better things to do than track down a UFO in hyperspace.  Probes could give up after a certain amount of time or distance is put between you and them.  I.e. they have programming that decides the target is not worth its while to "break into material components" and instead goes looking for a nice asteroid instead.

Then again, if the Kohr-Ah and Ur-Quan followed you around in their sphere of influence to  the solar systems, I doubt anyone would venture into it until the end of the game or absolute necessary.  I think it would make things like the Syreen vault quest much more difficult and risky.

Basically, this is a hardcore feature for advanced players and it should be an option to turn on and off.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2003, 09:22:46 pm »

In the game enemy's already don't follow you out side of their sphere of influence. This is only talking about the ships that wait outside the system for you to come out would now actually join you in the system you are visiting and exit hyperspace to do so.
That way, if you wish to aviod confrontation just whip around them, leave them in the system for a second, and exit to hyperspace again and, boom, they wouldn't be there anymore because they're in the system you were visiting. They would again be able to follow you out of the system into hyperspace, but then they'd be a bit behind you.
Is that what you were talking about Nic?
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2003, 12:10:11 pm »

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I like this idea, just so long as the "ships" give up after awhile.

That is how the game works currently; most ships give up after pursuing you a short distance outside their sphere of influence, and even the probes will only follow you for so long before giving up (usually this occurs after they have gone out of radar range, but sometimes you can see them "blink out")  and I see no reason to change it.  But since the Ur-Quan at Unzervalt claimed to have tracked back your ship from Hyperspace, it would be somewhat more "complete" to see other ships in the game do the same, and follow you out of Hyperspace after they "notice" you there.

And I don't believe it is either a "hardcore feature" nor a means to a "dodge maneuver", although depending on implementation, it may be both.  Smiley
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Matt Caspermeyer
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2003, 03:42:06 pm »

Nic:

Let me see if I can satisfactorily explain some of your perceived plot holes...

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Problem: The Earth starbase is about to run out of fuel, killing everyone aboard, when the Captain shows up in the nick of time to save them.  However, when you visit other starbases, they are doing just fine.
Proposed Solution: A slave-shielded world, near Ophiuchi or somesuch, with a non-populated, defunct starbase (i.e., they ended up like the Earth starbase would have if the Captain had not shown up) whose exploration could possibly give another hint about where the probes came from (perhaps it came under attack from probes in a weakened state?)


A possible explanation can be made by assuming that the Earth Starbase is the only one close to running out of fuel and that no other Starbases will run out of fuel before the Kohr-Ah perform their cleansing operation.

It is also logical to assume that each Starbase's refueling needs could be different and that the Kzer-Za's refueling schedule is setup such that no 2 Starbases run out of fuel at the same time.

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Problem: why is it that only shielded worlds have starbases?  It would seem that thralls/independents would need them more than shielded worlds.
Proposed solution: Starbases around all starfaring races' homeworlds; going to them would be functionally equivalent to visiting the homeworld itself, but would make the homeworlds look capable of space travel   No starbase around the Mycon's "special place" @ Beta Brahe, to make it a little more obvious that it's NOT their homeworld.


A possible explanation is that only slave-shield worlds get Starbases for the soul purpose of the Ur-Quan to come around and check on their slaves when refueling the Starbase. I think one of the alien races hints at that.

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Problem: The Ur-Quan siblings have been at war for 8 years.  Shouldn't worlds in their sphere have destroyed colonies, mines, etc. to make it look like it's a war zone?
Proposed solution: Destroyed worlds peppered throughout the "Doctrinal Conflict Zone", possibly with exploration text to make it clear that the Kzer-Za are losing.


A possible explanation to this can be made by making assumptions from the fact that there is no sign of a warzone:

1. Both the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za and the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah are nomadic space empires as stated by them.
2. Their fleets are completely self sufficient (as they claim they are self sufficient) and can be nomadic.
3. Since their fleets are self sufficient and they are nomadic, they have no need of terrerstrial colonies.
4. Since there are no signs of a warzone, the Doctrinal Conflict is being waged in space (albeit near gravity wells) - fleet against fleet, spacecraft against spacecraft.

This could be the reason why there is no warzone. Also, if you use SC1 to back up the fact that the Kzer-Za do indeed have colonies, I would state that there are quite a few inconsistencies between SC1 and SC2 (the timeline being a huge discrepency) and that the strategic game in SC1 has no bearing on the storyline of SC2.

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Another Problem: The Zoq-Fot-Pik tell you that they have been basically unseen by both the Ur-Quan and the Kohr-Ah, yet sometimes upon entering Alpha Tucanae, the place is crawling with Dreadnoughts/Marauders.
Proposed Solution: Make it such that the ZFP home star is free of fleets at all times (save the "worse than Zebranky!" attack), so that their dialog matches game events.


But the Kohr-Ah do eventually find the ZFP. Since the Doctrinal Conflict is apparently being fought throughout the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah spheres of influence "near gravity wells", then it makes sense for them to be in Alpha Tucanae.

On the mining issues:

Even though Commander Hayes supports you, there is no need to risk activity in the Sol system outside of their help for your Precursor vessel. Imagine if the Kzer-Za did come back and noticed the new activity in the Sol system with mining, space-faring fleets, etc.. The Earthlings would be severely punished for such a transgression. A Dreadnought did find Vela after all.

A case could be made that if the Ur-Quan showed up they'd find out about all the stuff going at the Starbase anyway and then why not mine anyway. I think, though, the Starbase can scan vessels coming into Sol and they'd probably have a enough time to hide what's going on their before the Dreadnought showed up - maybe. At least there wouldn't be activity at any of the other planets - a dead give away. Embarrassed

Also, they could trace the Precursor vessel to the Starbase, but Hayes can say that they didn't know who it was (some big unknown spaceship) and simply quote what he said at the beginning of the game and they told the ship to leave. Wink

Also, they build Cruisers as you need them - there's no stockpile for the Kzer-Za to see and there's no reason they would know about the plans if know one tells them. Lips Sealed

With the current plot, there is no reason to suspect anything from the Humans if a Kzer-Za Dreadnought comes through and checks up on them. Hayes can tell them that the Ilwrath or Spathi resupplied them because they were low on radioactives. Wink Since the Earth is still slave shielded and the Doctrinal Conflict is raging, there would be no need for the Ur-Quan to verify the story.

If the Kzer-Za start snooping around, though, there'd be a big problem!  Angry

On the BSS:

You actually believe the Spathi?! They're just BSS'ing you! There is no Black Spathi Squadron - they're just trying to scare you so that you'll leave them alone and stay out of their sphere of influence. The BSS has gotten quite a bit of press from the various SC2 sites, though, and the BSS has arisen out of myth.

I wouldn't be opposed to Fwiffo starting the BSS, though, after you take out, say, 30 Kohr-Ah Marauder's with Fwiffo's ship and without losing a single crew member. After "kicking some serious alien butt" he gets a spine. "Hi, I'm Fwiffo, the backbone of the BSS!"

On finding aliens in Quasispace:

There is no reason for the Arilou to tell anyone other than their children where the portal is. And since the portal is outside the sphere of influence of any aliens, there is no real reason for the Umgah (or any other thrall) to go looking for it. The Melnorme know about it, but that's about it. Also, if anyone else entered the Arilou would be fools not to destroy them immediately - it is their homeworld after all. So it seems like adding spaceships to Quasispace would be inconsistent with the story.

Well, maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong...
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2003, 09:45:22 pm »

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It is also logical to assume that each Starbase's refueling needs could be different and that the Kzer-Za's refueling schedule is setup such that no 2 Starbases run out of fuel at the same time.

The Earth starbase problem was due to neglect, not bad timing.  Their refueling schedule was every five years, and the Ur-Quan were (very) late for their appointment.  The Chmmr abandoned their starbase, so the fuel needs were probably very reduced, and since the Syreen starbase would be sustained by their starfleet once their ships are retrieved, there's no good reason for another "rescue the starbase" plot, but it could only help advance/enhance the plot to see a slave-shielded world, with an unknown alien race underneath, and a defunct starbase that ran out of fuel due to the same neglect that affected Earth.

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A possible explanation is that only slave-shield worlds get Starbases for the soul purpose of the Ur-Quan to come around and check on their slaves when refueling the Starbase. I think one of the alien races hints at that.

But why should the Utwig, Supox and Druuge care at all about Ur-Quan policies?  This reasoning is apologist at best.

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2. Their fleets are completely self sufficient (as they claim they are self sufficient) and can be nomadic.

Then why do the Ur-Quan bother to set up starbases at all, if they don't actually need them?  It stands to reason that they actually do need all the trappings of a space war (as put forth by starcon) and stumbling upon ruined bases in the war zone would be a nice enhancement.  But i'm just playing around with ideas, anyhow; noone says any of this will actually go anwhere.

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But the Kohr-Ah do eventually find the ZFP. Since the Doctrinal Conflict is apparently being fought throughout the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah spheres of influence "near gravity wells", then it makes sense for them to be in Alpha Tucanae.

"they have never found our homeworld, only our colony planets."
--The Pik

True, they should (and do) stumble upon it eventually, but they are supposed to be unseen by the Ur-Quan siblings for the duration of the game.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2003, 08:34:21 pm »

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Nic:
Also, they could trace the Precursor vessel to the Starbase, but Hayes can say that they didn't know who it was (some big unknown spaceship) and simply quote what he said at the beginning of the game and they told the ship to leave. Wink

Also, they build Cruisers as you need them - there's no stockpile for the Kzer-Za to see and there's no reason they would know about the plans if know one tells them. Lips Sealed

With the current plot, there is no reason to suspect anything from the Humans if a Kzer-Za Dreadnought comes through and checks up on them. Hayes can tell them that the Ilwrath or Spathi resupplied them because they were low on radioactives. Wink Since the Earth is still slave shielded and the Doctrinal Conflict is raging, there would be no need for the Ur-Quan to verify the story.

If the Kzer-Za start snooping around, though, there'd be a big problem!  Angry


I'd say that it would be a nice touch atmosphere-vice if Hayes would sometime during the game inform you that an Ur-Quan Dreadnought had been at the starbase asking some questions about a large unknown spaceship...

Quote
On the BSS:

You actually believe the Spathi?! They're just BSS'ing you! There is no Black Spathi Squadron - they're just trying to scare you so that you'll leave them alone and stay out of their sphere of influence. The BSS has gotten quite a bit of press from the various SC2 sites, though, and the BSS has arisen out of myth.


Actually the Spathi never say a word about BSS, it is commander Hayes who tells you the rumor. However, where that got started is another thing altogether...

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On finding aliens in Quasispace:

There is no reason for the Arilou to tell anyone other than their children where the portal is. And since the portal is outside the sphere of influence of any aliens, there is no real reason for the Umgah (or any other thrall) to go looking for it. The Melnorme know about it, but that's about it. Also, if anyone else entered the Arilou would be fools not to destroy them immediately - it is their homeworld after all. So it seems like adding spaceships to Quasispace would be inconsistent with the story.

Well, maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong...


The Spathi do mention that they noticed a star that appeared on 17th and disappeared on 20th(=the portal). Therefore it would seem logical that pretty much anyone could notice it (although the probability would be low) and take a look a bit too close.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2003, 11:53:58 am »

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I'd say that it would be a nice touch atmosphere-vice if Hayes would sometime during the game inform you that an Ur-Quan Dreadnought had been at the starbase asking some questions about a large unknown spaceship...

Any dreadnought that stopped by Sol would not be able to help but notice that the EarthGuard forces were gone and the spy drone was no longer on it's patrol.  I think this would lead them to ask quite a few questions on topics other than an "unknown spaceship", and god help us all if they decide to check up on the Spathi and Ilwrath to see why they have abandoned their posts.

In other words, I think that such a plot element would introduce more problems than it would "correct", especially since in the game, it is already taken care of:  the Ur-Quan figure out that the renegade humans are from Unzervalt, not Earth, and they put the red glow smackdown on that planet as soon as they can.  From that perspective, I'm sure they consider the problem "solved".
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« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2003, 05:00:06 pm »

The only genuinely problematic plot hole I've noticed so far is as follows:
1. The Doctrinal Wars would not have the started had the Kohr-Ah any concept of foreign relations that didn't involve genocide. The Kohr-Ah positively will not tolerate ANY life forms other than their own species.
2. Ur-Quan(Presumably both Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah) territorial instincts are so strong they are psychologically incapable of sharing a ship with one another, even one as colossal as a dreadnought(The Sa-Matra is another matter, I suppose).

Therefore, by simple deduction

3. Kohr-Ah ships have a total crew of one.  Huh

This is evidently false. Kohr-Ah crews number in the dozens, each crew member alive, well, and perfectly susceptible to Syreen seduction. A classic tale of Girl Meets Squid/Caterpillar/Thingie.

A few offhand solutions that spring to mind:
1. Robots, delicious, gratuitous robots. Of course, since the Mmrmnnmrmnrnmnrmnmnrmnetc. pretty much monopolize the halfway sophisticated robot market, these would probably have to be Milieu era tech, probably purchased from the Melnorme.
2. Ubertweaked talking pets? A bit anticlimactic, but changes little of the original plot of SC2, and therefore worth consideration.
3. Any takers? I wouldn't recommend allowing the Kohr-Ah to actually overcome their territoriality. If it were that easy, the Kzer-Za would be way ahead. Well, not way ahead, since necessity is the mother of invention, but I still don't think such an important aspect of either race should be dismissed so lightly.
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Erm...
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2003, 05:02:20 pm »

Did I say "purchased"? Embarrassed
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2003, 07:16:06 pm »

Here's the biggest inconsistancy I can see:

Melnorme:
Instead of destroying the Kohr-Ah, the Kzer-Za let them go
directing them to make their way through the stars, travelling against the spin
of the galaxy.
The Kzer-Za would travel in the opposite direction...


Lander crew:
---- REPORT FROM SURFACE ----
WE HAVE FOUND AN IMMENSELY POWERFUL HYPERWAVE TRANSMITTER HERE ON THE SURFACE OF THIS MOON. IT IS SENDING A STRONG HYPERWAVE SIGNAL OUTWARD, INTO THE UNEXPLORED, ANTI-SPINWARD REGION OF THE GALAXY. SINCE THIS EQUIPMENT IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE, AND WE HAVE FOUND NO SIGN OF ANY INTELLIGENT LIFE ON THIS MOON, WE HAVE DECIDED TO DISASSEMBLE THE TRANSMITTER AND BRING IT BACK TO THE SHIP.
---- END OF REPORT ----


These are incongruent.  The easiest way to fix this is to change the lander text (no need to change the Melnorme speech), but there is other evidence that suggests that the Kohr-Ah traveled spinward, not anti-spinward.  The Thraddash were the Kzer-Za's first slaves in this region, and the Burvixese were the Kohr-Ah's first kill on the visible star-map.  The star-map indicates the galactic spin to be from the Burvixese homeworld to the Thraddash sphere.  That means to fix the problem without changing speech, the lander text and the map need to be changed (reverse the  spin of the galaxy).  Of course, my personal suggestion is to alter the Melnorme text and set speechvol=0 as default. Smiley
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Death 999
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2003, 10:01:20 pm »

No, they're both right. Antispinward and 'against the spin of the galaxy' are both the opposite direction as galactic spin; this is the direction from which the Kohr-Ah came.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2003, 01:07:52 am »

But if you're travelling anti-spinward, you'll arrive from the spinward direction.
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Death 999
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2003, 02:25:26 am »

Oh, duh -- much like a north wind goes south.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2003, 03:15:29 am »

Concerning the Kohr-Ah thing, there has been debate concerning that before... It may be that the Marauders are automated, or that the Kohr-Ah were genetically engineered to have less of a territorial instinct by the Dnyarri, as they were to be workers and soldiers, and thus needed to work together. And of course, there's always the theory that the crew member stat is only meant as a representation of the total strength of the ship....

Regarding Quasispace, it would be interesting if there could be random encounters with closeby races, such as the Umgah or Traddash in there. But it's not very likely, seeing as the portal is way outside of their sphere of influence, and none of the races really move outside their sphere, unless the whole fleet moves. Still, there should be a few Arilou in there.
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Re: Looking post-1.0: "Shoring up" the s
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2003, 07:58:23 pm »

Been awhile.

One thing that I think would be a nice touch, not really a 'shore-up' but nice nonetheless, would be two voices when you first reach the Chmmr world, instead of just the Mmrnhrmm talking. It'd be neat to hear a Chenjesu. Once the races combine, then you'd hear a blend of the voices (pretty much near like it is.)

One other inconsistiency that I've spotted is that the Slylandro Drone is immune to mind control, true, but somehow marines can still break in and kill the "soft targets" within? (I also think the Mmrnhrmm should be immune to mind control but not marines, but that's mainly a melee point.) Tongue
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