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Author Topic: A Modest Proposal  (Read 5258 times)
Shiver
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A Modest Proposal
« on: June 20, 2004, 07:38:48 am »

Okay, I'm sure everyone who just clicked that title has alarms going off in their head that this is a big prank, but I do have a serious request for the core team worth considering: nerf the god-forsaken Arilou. I know supermelee like the back of my hand by now, I'm sure a lot of us do, and let me tell you there's no ship I hate having to fight more than that one. Landing a fair shot on it is roughly the same as getting a Royal Flush in a poker game!

Could you guys be so kind as to program in a 1 in 15 chance that it'll not teleport away from incoming fire or something like that?
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Defender
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2004, 07:52:40 am »

not to disagree, but look at it this way, if you set the battles to cyborg in a normal game. that means if you have the arilou fight for you, there going to be seriously taken adavatage of. i like the idea that its to my advantage that the arilou are hard to beat. maybe if there was toggle to turn the ai up or down, would solve that. i do agree that that ship, handed me my behind on more than one occasion. id like to see all the ships ai tweaked for sport. just to add to the challenge and all.

~DEFIANT
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 09:41:18 pm by DEFIANT » Logged
denkc
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2004, 12:11:02 pm »

i've always found the chenjesu incredibly hard to beat using most dudes, since they've got a great long range weapon which quickly turns to a short one, and the energy draining dealy doesn't help much either.

of course, I could just be bad at the game.

edit:  oh yeah, for the record, utwig too.  i could only get them in the normal game by keeping my distance in the precursor and holding down the fire button, waiting for it to accidentally turn off its shield.  except with orz, orz invading dudes did the job pretty well, with a few lost.

again, i could just be bad.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 12:36:08 pm by denkc » Logged
Michael Martin
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2004, 01:02:38 pm »

Utwig is nearly unbeatable with "perfect" play.  Arilou is almost truly unbeatable (can only die if a chain of unlucky teleports keeps putting it in the way of the shots).  However, Utwig is ALSO nearly unbeatable with "pretty good" play except versus the Chenjesu.

We have no plans to change the AI for 1.0.  That's a pretty huge task, and we'd just as soon preserve the original game in 1.0.

Many threads on here will compare the theoretical "best practice" for ships vs. what people can actually do vs. what the AI actually does.  All three are pretty wildly different.

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Captain Smith
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2004, 02:17:28 pm »

I agree with Shiver.  I don't know if a lot of the ships have been toned down or not between SC2 and UQM, but Arilou, Slylandro, and Pkunk are just about impossible sometimes to take out on Awesome level.  Very computer-accurate reflexes, and very good at avoiding your fire.

Same with Utwig and Yehat in shielding....Utwig can be knocked down and out quite easily by many ships though, so I'm not too worried about him.  Yehat OTOH is almost perfect (at least in SC2), and takes a continuous attack against to do well.  Even if you slime it with the VUX until it's non-functional movement wise, it can still take you out, because that shield is permanent as far as the VUX is concerned.

I wouldn't go for seriously neutering these ships, just make them a little less hard to hit than they are.  To me, if very few well piloted ships can take down those ships (which is the case with me and Arilou, Pkunk, and Slylandro, even after 11 years of playing the game), then that indicates a problem.  Especially it's a problem when you consider that many of the capital ships (29 & 30 pts) have multiple ships that a competent supermelee player can use to destroy them.

To wit, Denkc...an awesome Chenjesu computer pilot should fear  well piloted Chmmr, Ilwrath, Supox, Chenjesu, Ur-Quan, Spathi, Androsynth, Utwig (if that DOGI doesn't connect, Chenjesu is done), Orz, Syreen, Mycon, Slylandro, Zot-Foq-Pik, Yehat, Melnorme, and Mmrnmhrm.  By "fear" I mean, either the ship should be destroyed or seriously damaged.

The rest of the capital ships have almost similar weakness lists.
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Captain Smith
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2004, 02:20:52 pm »

skipped the Kohr-Ah in that list too....that's a fun one to take against a Chenjesu.
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FalconMWC
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2004, 06:29:23 pm »

The druuge super aiming gun is fun to deal with as well.......
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2004, 08:51:21 pm »

Maybe it's just because I've been playing this game too long, but I don't find those ships all that hard to beat. Some of them (like the Skift) take a while
to hit, but you on;y have to do it once. For every ship, there are a few
others that are really good at killing them. If anything, I'd like to see
the AI upgraded, not crippled.
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Shiver
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2004, 12:01:08 am »

"We aren't screwing with it 'til 1.0" is fair, I guess, but with the way the game plays now it seems like 0.6 or so will be just as good as a full version. Please keep this in mind when the original game is complete.

I've noticed a few other problem ships as well. I thought I'd point at the Arilou first of all as it seems to be the most "gimped" ship in the game. The other super fast ships as well as the shield ships could use a more gentle fix. There's nothing especially wrong with the Chenjesu as I see it.

Zeep-Eeep: The difficulty of a ship should reflect its point value. Clearly there's a problem if people fear a 16-point Arilou more than a combined fleet worth 60ish points of most other ships. The ship AI should be fair to the average gamer, not the average SuperMelee crack fiend.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2004, 12:03:03 am by Shiver » Logged
FalconMWC
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2004, 12:15:22 am »

You used the word average. That is not how the AI should be on the hardest level. It should be much harder than the average gamer.
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Shiver
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2004, 12:28:25 am »

Quote
You used the word average. That is not how the AI should be on the hardest level. It should be much harder than the average gamer.


But Awesome AI is what the story mode uses, isn't it? They could make that (with aforementioned adjustments to gimped ships) be standard and make an Insane setting that's virtually unbeatable with any ship, but currently the game isn't set up that way.
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2004, 03:54:34 am »

I was under the impression story mode doesn't match any of the super melee settings, but rather a totally seperate AI routine.  Seems most obvious against the slylandro - if story mode used awesome AI, few would survive their first probe.
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Shiver
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2004, 04:02:44 am »

I noticed very little difference between the two, except for the probes as you've mentioned. The story is easier because it keeps all the dangerous AI ships from fighting you, except for the Yehat if you aren't careful.

Would it be a good idea to make the story probe code be used in melee as well? They'd behave more like 17 pointers, that's for sure.
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Captain Smith
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2004, 07:46:12 am »

This would be the path that I would take.  Call the "Awesome" mode something more befitting and then make a "Challenge" mode.  Actually what I thought would be cool is an adjustable AI...something like..

1) Intelligence - the kind of tactics that get used.  Set on the low side it uses dumb tactics, run at you and shoot, etc, etc.  Set on the high side it uses tactics similar to what a human player might use with the ship given enough time.
2) Aggressiveness - how aggressive is the AI against you?  Set on the low side, it's more evasive, tries to hit you, but doesn't really go after you hard.  Set on the highest setting, comes after you hard, does as much damage as possible, and will sacrifice its own crew to harm you more.  Basically a "death wish" setting...

I'm sure I could think of more given enough time, but that's a thought if anyone wants to try to code an alternative AI.

Quote

But Awesome AI is what the story mode uses, isn't it? They could make that (with aforementioned adjustments to gimped ships) be standard and make an Insane setting that's virtually unbeatable with any ship, but currently the game isn't set up that way.

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Defender
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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2004, 11:24:56 am »

Quote
This would be the path that I would take.  Call the "Awesome" mode something more befitting and then make a "Challenge" mode.  Actually what I thought would be cool is an adjustable AI...something like..

1) Intelligence - the kind of tactics that get used.  Set on the low side it uses dumb tactics, run at you and shoot, etc, etc.  Set on the high side it uses tactics similar to what a human player might use with the ship given enough time.
2) Aggressiveness - how aggressive is the AI against you?  Set on the low side, it's more evasive, tries to hit you, but doesn't really go after you hard.  Set on the highest setting, comes after you hard, does as much damage as possible, and will sacrifice its own crew to harm you more.  Basically a "death wish" setting...

I'm sure I could think of more given enough time, but that's a thought if anyone wants to try to code an alternative AI.



this is exactly how i would want it. some kind of slider to increase or decrease the ai. i totally agree. good thinking there Captain Smith. im sold... how soon can we get this together and shiped out. ha ha ha Cheesy

~DEFIANT
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