The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 03, 2023, 04:22:57 am
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Print
Author Topic: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...  (Read 31111 times)
meep-eep
Forum Admin
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2847



View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2004, 03:53:38 am »

A point not yet made: when a race fighting against the Ur-Quan realise they can not win, they may give up, thereby saving lives (and if they choose to be battle thralls, ships).
A race fighting against the Kzer-Za, knowing noone will be left alive, are bound to fight to the last person, which means more Kohr-Ah losses.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 03:54:23 am by meep-eep » Logged

“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2004, 05:10:58 am »

I have my doubts that the Ur-Quan left many (if any) overseers behind. They need all the manpower they can get against the Kohr-Ah, their greatest threat. If a species rebels in the Ur-Quan's absence, so what? They can go back and subdue them again like they did before.
Logged
jabbrwock
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2004, 09:50:22 pm »

Quote
I have my doubts that the Ur-Quan left many (if any) overseers behind. They need all the manpower they can get against the Kohr-Ah, their greatest threat. If a species rebels in the Ur-Quan's absence, so what? They can go back and subdue them again like they did before.


This makes sense if you view only the area of the Alliance/Hierarchy, or maybe 2 or 3 more like it.  When you consider that the Ur-Quan have been in this business for 15,000 years, it becomes obvious that the Ur-Quan cannot have failed to do *SOMETHING* to insure that their conquests remain conquered.  The obvious solution is to leave a few overseers behind.  As for distracting from the Kohr-Ah, 15,000 years is a long time for any race.  Would the Ur-Quan seriously make a complete mockery of the doctrine that defines their difference from their Kohr-Ah cousins for a trivial (in the long run) potential advantage 15,000 years in the future?

Consider also that maintaining a population and industrial base in the rear areas represents a strength, rather than a weakness, in the war against the Kohr-Ah.  The Kzer-Za undoubtedly were calling up reinforcements from their rear area overseer populations throughout the war - only the overpowering might of the Kohr-Ah (and quite likely, the massive destruction the Kzer-Za suffered from the Shofixti) prevented the Kzer-Za from hanging on long enough for their reinforcements to swing the tide the other way.  A huge slave empire only loses to a tribe of nomads when the nomads can utterly crush the empire's resistance before the empire can mobilize its superior numbers and weapons production capability to properly resist.

If the Kzer-Za were to actually ignore their conquests and move on, they might as well not even bother.  Worse, in fact - they would be containing the less aggressive races, leaving all natural resources for the exclusive use of the more aggressive, battle thrall races when they decide to stop obeying the Hierarchy.  Sure, maybe the memory of defeat can keep them down for a while, but for 15,000 years?  No way, and the Ur-Quan aren't stupid enough to imagine that it would.

That's my real objection to the belief that pretty much every Kzer-Za in the galaxy was involved in the battle with the Kohr-Ah - it trivializes the Ur-Quan as a threat.  Humor is fine, and indeed an integral part of the Star Control universe, but the Ur-Quan are not supposed to be funny or ridiculous or absurd.  They are supposed to be menacing.  A race stupid enough to *NOT* oversee conquered slave races is not menacing, it's like having the Spathi as the evil overlords.  Heck, the Spathi would be *MORE* menacing - at least they would never overlook the real danger of rebellion from their past conquests.
Logged
Bobucles
Guest


Email
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2004, 05:22:02 am »

The Ur-Quan Kzer-Za know quite well how to keep their slaves. They had left plenty of overseers to maintain the outpost of Earth's moon. With the Spathi and Ilwrath, they made sure that Earth followed the laws set down by the Kzer-Za.

But, the Kzer-Za were losing in the Doctrinal conflict, and they had to bring in reinforcements from somewhere. Bit by bit, they've had to call the overseers away from the slave worlds, to help the Kzer-Za in their fight. in the case of Earth, the Ilwrath were fairly trustworthy, and would've easily kept a good watch over Sol. Thanks to Dogar and Kazon, though, they left, and with the natural cowardace of the Spathi, Earth eventually had no overseers left.

Had the Precursor flagship arrived just a few years earlier in the Sol system, it would've been blown into a million pieces. Talk about luck, huh?  Smiley
Logged
Sander Scamper
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 408


I'm not a little teapot


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2004, 01:51:15 am »

Who watches the watchman?
Who polices the police?

I'm assuming any reasonable species won't stay subjugated for long under no duress. Sure the Ilwrath will watch the humans, but what happens if the Ilwrath decide to up and go home, like they actually did?
No species that is under the yoke of a slaver race will simply stay enslaved if they see a way to stop being inslaved (your slaver goes away for 8 years, for a start).

The Mycon are an exception, as they SEEK out the Kzer-Za.
Even the Spathi wouldn't stay enslaved, as they regain...some...courage at the absense of their masters.

And as to the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za ship difference, it wouldn't matter.
In order to subjugate a species, you need to put them under REAL threat, in the case of the spathi, a vegetable would've worked. But for instance, the Thraddash, they would've had seige their home planet, and any ships the Thraddash had left would obviously protect their home world. So the Kzer-Za would have had to destroy all those ships before giving the 'Thrall or Fallow?" question. You're mistaking land warfare with space, its totally different in this situation. Gorilla and Resistance warfare worked in WW2, but a planet under seige can just be bombarded from out of its effective defences, so it will fall, with NO losses to the bombarding fleet.
Same with the Kzer-Za, but minus the genocide bit.
Logged

"Oops!" KA-BOOM!!

"Space is a dangerous place where wimps eat flaming plasma death" -The Zot....or is it the Fot?? We may never know...unless the guy in the back tells us!

UQM/SC2 = World Peace.
meep-eep
Forum Admin
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2847



View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2004, 05:08:55 am »

Quote
You may not approach the ancient Sa-Matra, the symbol of Ur-Quan dominance!
Your presence here is further violation of the slave laws
which your species have already violated so flagrantly.
We cannot tolerate such insubordination!
Your species' penalty shall be annihilation!

The Kzer-Za are not beyond genocide, if that's what is required for their safety. That threat should keep most races from rebelling, unless they are sure they can win. The Kzer-Za take good care of the races they conquered, so it's not that they have nothing to live for.
Of course, a race afraid enough to enslave all intelligence in the universe would not take the chance, and will make sure to keep an eye on them.
And they did, until they needed every man in the war against the Kohr-Ah.
Logged

“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
Sander Scamper
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 408


I'm not a little teapot


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2004, 08:02:37 am »

I meant they dont simply destroy you, they give your species a choice. The Kohr-Ah don't.
And Zelnick REALLY pissed them off =p
Logged

"Oops!" KA-BOOM!!

"Space is a dangerous place where wimps eat flaming plasma death" -The Zot....or is it the Fot?? We may never know...unless the guy in the back tells us!

UQM/SC2 = World Peace.
jabbrwock
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2004, 10:11:14 am »

Quote

The Kzer-Za are not beyond genocide, if that's what is required for their safety. That threat should keep most races from rebelling, unless they are sure they can win. The Kzer-Za take good care of the races they conquered, so it's not that they have nothing to live for.
Of course, a race afraid enough to enslave all intelligence in the universe would not take the chance, and will make sure to keep an eye on them.
And they did, until they needed every man in the war against the Kohr-Ah.


No matter how dire the threat, if you vanish without a trace for 15,000 years, people are going to stop believing it.  The Ur-Quan, not being idiots, would recognize this fact, and make sure that they did not, in fact, vanish without a trace - they'd leave overseers behind drawn from their own race, because they sure wouldn't trust any other race on that kind of time scale.

The Hierarchy in Alliance space basically collapsed within 8 years of the Ur-Quan vanishing.  The Yehat, the Thraddash, and the Vux pretty much toed the line during those 8 years.  The Umgah, the Spathi, the Ilwrath, and the Mycons all took advantage of the absence of the Ur-Quan to do things they had to know the Ur-Quan wouldn't like.  And that was just 8 years!  I am ignoring, for the moment, the effects the Captain and the New Alliance had on the battle thralls - ancient Precursor relics are hardly something you take into your calculations.

What's more interesting than this is the implication that there's a big hostile galaxy dominated by the Ur-Quan out there, untouched by the New Alliance.  That's something that has astounding implications for any future Star Control title.
Logged
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2004, 10:40:43 am »

Well said, jabrwock. I think you are right in that they must have left some of their own behind. That seems indisputable now. However, I completely disagree that they'd have massive reinforcements on route to the Doctrinal War. 15,000 years worth of conquering would mean most of their ships are too far away - why even bother? Even if you say that traveling friendly territory is twenty times faster than fighting for every inch of space, that's still way too damn long.

My crappy estimates: I imagine more like 12 Dreadnoughts left in each SC2's map-sized perimeter. I suppose if you added these all up it would reach up to 8,000 ships at most, but the Ur-Quan fleet in the area of the game numbers just over 2 million. 12 ships in an SC2 sized area is plenty to work with - if a race turns sour, just retreat and call the other thralls down on them. In addition, those 12 would have a vast number of subserviant ships covering their backs.

Also, it's possible the Ur-Quan are complete assholes and just slave shield a race after they're no longer useful in the immediate area. Wouldn't that be funny?
Logged
ChainiaC
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 139


Cybernetic Experiment


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2004, 02:15:00 pm »

Quote

Also, it's possible the Ur-Quan are complete assholes and just slave shield a race after they're no longer useful in the immediate area. Wouldn't that be funny?


Damn good point Smiley
Logged
Smaug
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 23


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2004, 02:42:36 pm »

Quote
Also, it's possible the Ur-Quan are complete assholes and just slave shield a race after they're no longer useful in the immediate area. Wouldn't that be funny?


It would, also, be very much unlike the Ur-Quan. Observe:

Quote
Human. We Ur-Quan never lie. NEVER!
It is a weakness to lie and, as you have noticed, the Ur-Quan are not weak!


Completely without guile or subterfuge, by choice. So, why would the Kzer-Za say that they are going to permit a race to have some limited access to space as a Battle Thrall if they're just going to turn around and Slave Shield them later? That would be a lie, and the Ur-Quan (presumably both the Kzer-Za and the Kohr-Ah, since the Kohr-Ah have no need to) do not lie.
Logged
Sander Scamper
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 408


I'm not a little teapot


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2004, 05:51:24 pm »

Noo...Its a 'Loophole' tm
Logged

"Oops!" KA-BOOM!!

"Space is a dangerous place where wimps eat flaming plasma death" -The Zot....or is it the Fot?? We may never know...unless the guy in the back tells us!

UQM/SC2 = World Peace.
Zeep-Eeep
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 917


Good Grief


View Profile WWW
Changes....
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2004, 06:11:28 pm »

Quote


It would, also, be very much unlike the Ur-Quan. Observe:

Completely without guile or subterfuge, by choice. So, why would the Kzer-Za say that they are going to permit a race to have some limited access to space as a Battle Thrall if they're just going to turn around and Slave Shield them later? That would be a lie, and the Ur-Quan (presumably both the Kzer-Za and the Kohr-Ah, since the Kohr-Ah have no need to) do not lie.


Remember the Star Wars movie, Empire Strikes Back? You may recall
a scene in which Vadar is arguing with Lando. Lando points out that
Vadar agreed to take what he wanted and then leave. Vadar has
decided to leave troops behind and states flatly that he is "Altering the
deal. Pray that I do not alter it further."

My assumption is that the Ur-Quan would do one of two things to thrall
races. Either alter the deal so that the races were slave shielded. Or,
more likely, take them along for the ride....No where do they say that thralls
get to stay home. So, I imagine they take the thralls with them, using
them as cannon fodder when they find a new race. This does a few
things.
1. Prevents rebels from poping up behind the Ur-Quan fleet.
2. Weakens the new enemy.
3. Prevents additional Ur-Quan losses, since the thralls all die first.

Thoughts?
Logged

What sound does a penguin make?
Sander Scamper
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 408


I'm not a little teapot


View Profile
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2004, 06:29:18 pm »

It would also mean providing provisions, fuel food and all of the little things that specific races need....Madness.
The Ur-Quan fleet, laden down with such cannonfodder, would move so slowly it would be impractical.

I personally believe that they leave about 1200 Dreadnaughts  in each starmap sector, and left behind the limitations (you can only build x number of ships per year).

Now, considering how amazingly powerful their economy would be due to controlling 15000 years worth of worlds.
They would be able to, in one sector, produce about 1400 ships in a starmap sector, using the already present factories their thralls would have, in about 10 years.
If that seems a little high, remember that each thrall race would have a sphere equal to average say...umgah space, at minimum. All colonized worlds would have the ability to produce 1 ship every 6 months, EASILY. Maybe 20+ colonized worlds per sphere, alter to match sphere size/race technology/industry).
Now consider metrocenter worlds, say 6 ships every 6 months. (say, 5 of them)
How about homeworlds? Im thinking 10 ships every 3 months.

All this doesnt even include Space stations etc.

That would mean that if the Ur-Quan stayed in a sector for 10 years, to properly subjugate it, and then establish iron rule and begin pumping out their ships, that their fleet would be HUGE after 15000 years, minus, of course, deaths.
Then the Kohr-Ah come along, is it just me or do their ships rip apart dreadnaughts?
Sure they would have a much lower amount of ships, but they have their insane ships. This evens out the score, to me.
The Kzer-Za also lost a 3rd of their ships in the Shofixti blast.

I think, personally, that the Kohr-Ah have their own way to produce more ships. I have no idea what this is.
Logged

"Oops!" KA-BOOM!!

"Space is a dangerous place where wimps eat flaming plasma death" -The Zot....or is it the Fot?? We may never know...unless the guy in the back tells us!

UQM/SC2 = World Peace.
Art
Guest


Email
Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2004, 07:05:41 am »

Quote
I think, personally, that the Kohr-Ah have their own way to produce more ships. I have no idea what this is.


Well, that's why Kohr-Ah ships look "encrusted", nay? They're mass-produced without regard for spit and polish. Kzer-Za may have been the theorists, but the actual technicians and laborers were Kohr-Ah, who'd be the best at organizing assembly lines to turn a once-inhabited planet into a dedicated Marauder factory. To them, planets, rather than being administrative headaches, are nothing but rich lumps of ore ready to be processed into more ships and weapons once the annoying organic fuzz has been wiped off the surface. Smiley

Probably, once they've cleared an entire sector of Filth, they drop down from the Marauders in shuttles, cover the surfaces of the dead worlds with machinery, and start cranking out new Marauders as fast as they can. Since you can probably get a lot more minerals out of a planet if you don't need to support life on it, that's probably why their ships rely more on solid projectiles (since they have a ready source of dense metals) while being more thrifty with fusion fuel, which takes more organization and labor to synthesize (organization and labor being the advantage of the Kzer-Za).
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!